omg now what am i going to do?

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:50 pm

dcrane wrote:my oil boiler uses black pipe, copper and its a monoflow system from 1961 with cast iron baseboard and never had had an issue, but when expanding the system some years ago i discovered those stupid lil' monoflow "T's" are VERY EXPENSIVE (i think i paid in the neighborhood of $50 EACH :mad: ), I dont think they use these things much anymore which may add to why they cost so much to obtain now? what was the biggest problem was trying to split this system into more than one zone :fear: (It took 3 different plumbers to finally get it right).


Everything is expensive now a days! Lol. Try pexsupply.com for your monoflo tees. $10-$20/ ea depending on size and such. No idea shipping or whatnot, I've not ordered from them before. I mostly use local HVAC supply co.
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous
Coal Size/Type: Kittanning Seam, Stove size
Stove/Furnace Make: old handfired bituminous

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:54 pm

Lightning wrote:
CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:As Franco said, the O2 in the system gets used up, eliminating the rusting issues.
Wow.. That's interesting.. I always thought that the oxygen that is bonded with hydrogen in H2O reacts with metals to form rust. I didn't know it was because of free O2 dissolved in the water instead. Huh... Learned something new everyday.. :)


I can't say for sure if it is the dissolved O2 or the reaction simply reaches a balance? The effect is the same, but I don't know for certain which reaction is responsible. Maybe the reaction builds up nanoprobes that stops the rust for all I know :D. If someone knows the chemistry for sure, I'd read it with great interest, though!
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous
Coal Size/Type: Kittanning Seam, Stove size
Stove/Furnace Make: old handfired bituminous

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: blrman07 On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:23 pm

Everything you never wanted to know about corrosion in boiler systems. Mix Oxygen with iron and you get what we call rust. When all the oxygen is used up, the reaction stops until more air is introduced to the system and then it starts all over again. One reason why you don't use black pipe in a domestic water system, hot or cold. This link covers everything from power generation boilers to home heating boilers.

http://www.gewater.com/handbook/boiler_ ... boiler.jsp

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: Lightning On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:26 pm

Mix Oxygen with iron and you get what we call rust. When all the oxygen is used up, the reaction stops until more air is introduced to the system and then it starts all over again.



So why is then that a metal tends to rust faster when it gets wet as opposed to just being in contact with the air?? :? :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: davidmcbeth3 On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:35 pm

blrman07 wrote:Everything you never wanted to know about corrosion in boiler systems. Mix Oxygen with iron and you get what we call rust. When all the oxygen is used up, the reaction stops until more air is introduced to the system and then it starts all over again. One reason why you don't use black pipe in a domestic water system, hot or cold. This link covers everything from power generation boilers to home heating boilers.

http://www.gewater.com/handbook/boiler_ ... boiler.jsp

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.


Crap. lol
davidmcbeth3
 
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 503

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:00 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:I can't sa balance? The effect is the same, but I don't know for certain which reaction is responsible. Maybe the reaction builds up nanoprobes that stops the rust for all I know :D. If someone knows the chemistry for sure, I'd read it with great interest, though!

Oxygen disassociates from water at about 155°.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: blrman07 On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:59 pm

Lightning wrote:
Mix Oxygen with iron and you get what we call rust. When all the oxygen is used up, the reaction stops until more air is introduced to the system and then it starts all over again.



So why is then that a metal tends to rust faster when it gets wet as opposed to just being in contact with the air?? :? :lol:


Hope this answers your question. We used to calling it "putting a skin on the piping" when they first started up a new system.
copied from gewater.com/handbook/boiler_water_systems/ch_11_preboiler.jsp

Oxide Formation
Iron oxides present in operating boilers can be classified into two major types. The first and most important is the 0.0002-0.0007 in. (0.2-0.7 mil) thick magnetite formed by the reaction of iron and water in an oxygen-free environment. This magnetite forms a protective barrier against further corrosion. Magnetite forms on boiler system metal surfaces from the following overall reaction:
3Fe + 4H2O ® Fe3O4 + 4H2­
iron water magnetite hydrogen
The magnetite, which provides a protective barrier against further corrosion, consists of two layers. The inner layer is relatively thick, compact, and continuous. The outer layer is thinner, porous, and loose in structure. Both of these layers continue to grow due to water diffusion (through the porous outer layer) and lattice diffusion (through the inner layer). As long as the magnetite layers are left undisturbed, their growth rate rapidly diminishes. The second type of iron oxide in a boiler is the corrosion products, which may enter the boiler system with the feedwater. These are frequently termed "migratory" oxides, because they are not usually generated in the boiler. The oxides form an outer layer over the metal surface. This layer is very porous and easily penetrated by water and ionic species. Iron can enter the boiler as soluble ferrous ions and insoluble ferrous and ferric hydroxides or oxides. Oxygen-free, alkaline boiler water converts iron to magnetite, Fe3O4. Migratory magnetite deposits on the protective layer and is normally gray to black in color.


There is a type of steel called weathering steel that is designed to rust on the surface, build a patena which protects it from further rusting. The first major usage of weathering steel was the John Deere world office in Moline Illinois. They now use weathering steel in bridge construction. It requires no painting and has very minimal maintenance.

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: Lightning On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:08 pm

Thanks Rev. Larry.. That's pretty cool!
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: McGiever On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:37 pm

The disassociation of Oxygen from boiler water held @ long term higher than 155*F is what makes the boiler water inert towards iron oxidation inside the sealed vessel. (rusting) But...after disassociation the oxygen still needs to be physically removed from the sealed system or rust will still form.

Not so much of a boiler material...but here is some more about
Corten Steel.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coe+ten ... S:official
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:55 pm

If no new oxygen is introduced to the closed system, any oxidation will be self limiting,..for the most part. I've seen hundred year old steam pipes that only failed because they got clogged up, not rusted out. Steam systems are constantly adding new water,...and oxygen to the system.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:19 pm

no news yet this snow has set me back, I cant get to working on my pipes. I cant even see the window I was going to run through . maybe tuesday I will get something done. Right now its shoveling off the roofs.
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: joeblack5 On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:59 pm

I have an Energy King boiler as well and I have had my shop full of steam and water two times. Both occurred at night when the boiler was loaded for the night. The first time was a broken circulator. The second time a broken GFI that shut off the circulator. Both time happened with coal.
The PEX run to the house is 1-1/2" insulated. I never run higher then 140 F to allow some overshoot. and at 160 the dump zone comes in.

My energy king has a blower that comes on below a certain water temp but it can not shut the air completely off. If you are burning wood and have no draft control then you can get into a limited runaway situation when the increased stack temp results in more draft results in more sucking in air.

If the Pex has failed all the way then maybe your circulator after the heat exchanger stopped working or you did not call for heat. It is pretty hard for a 140000 BTU boiler fully loaded to throttle down quickly one's all the fuel is burning. May be you heat exchanger is not dimensioned for the right capacity at the right ( lower) temperatures,

Actually I think it is pretty dangerous unless you have a redundant pump system and redundant power system.

I have modified my hand fed to a stoker to avoid a fire box full of fire especially at night when you are not there. But I like to have the option to hand feed ( remove the stoker) .

Good luck
joeblack5
 

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:37 am

i would like information on how you modified it to a stoker. That little door on the blower opened up on me (screw fell out) so after the blower shut off at 170 it was still sucking air through the opening. So it got hot. Not sure what happened to the pipe though it collapsed on it self for a undetermined length of pipe underground.
Ps. I see they don't make the boilers anymore
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:55 am

I am back up and running again pexalpex 1 inch laying on the ground through windows. real rube goldberg but its working. I probably should have gone with 1 1/4 but cost is a factor for me. 1 inch is what I had before. Now I have to figure out how to seal up the windows to keep the cold out of the basement.
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Re: omg now what am i going to do?

PostBy: GaryFerg On: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:01 pm

I am not sure which is the best for me to use? Pex al pex or just o2 barrier pex? also for a run of 30 feet what is the right size pex to use I have been using 1 inch but I am wondering if I should goto 1 1/4? I tried to figure it out but math is hard! The boiler is 144000 btu.
GaryFerg
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Energy King boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon TLC 2000
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: oil

Visit Lehigh Anthracite