For those thinking about propane

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: McGiever On: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:14 pm

KLook wrote:It is an electric heat element that you can install into the existing duct work and run it off 220 for better efficiency. Plus it blows it around the house like normal instead of having little 1500 watt heaters in several rooms. This brought out the deficiencies in my wires and outlets however and I corrected that.

Kevin


Sorry to report, but 220 volt is no more efficient than 110 volt...you are NOT billed for Amperage...you are billed for Watt hours.

It is true that a 220 volt unit of equal wattage to a 110 volt unit will draw 1/2 the amperage (current) but since you pay for watt hours halving the current while doubling the voltage leaves the wattage exactly the same...so no saving there. :o
Perhaps downsize the copper wire size if you wanted to for the less amps. ;)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: Lightning On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:14 am

McGiever wrote:It is true that a 220 volt unit of equal wattage to a 110 volt unit will draw 1/2 the amperage (current) but since you pay for watt hours halving the current while doubling the voltage leaves the wattage exactly the same...so no saving there.
Right I agree.. I believe the better efficiency is due to line loss.. Higher voltage carries the amperage more efficiently than the lower voltage or something like that, I believe lol. Although line loss wouldn't amount to much anyways..
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: Freddy On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:22 am

A friend of mine works at a place that heats with propane. Last week they ran out! Being on automatic delivery that kind of surprised them, but the real surprise came when they were told they would not be filled up.....they were delivered enough to last 2 or 3 weeks. Price? Whatever they can bleed out of you.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined


Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:02 am

lsayre wrote:The last statistics I came across said that 45% of propane comes from the refining of crude oil, and 55% of it comes from separation out of natural gas.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but with fracking and horizontal drilling in the Bakken and Marcellus and Utica shale formations our nation is supposedly producing more oil and natural gas than it has in many decades. One would think that propane would be in plentiful abundance and quite economical as a consequence.


google a map of the oil fields in North Dakota -- AT NIGHT -

If you look at the wide shot of the nation you see the east coast and how bright the seaboard cities are - then you eye comes west and you see the rust belt and the bright lights around the Great Lakes

Then around Minot ND you see this shocking bright dot - Thats the fracking wells burning off the NG that is coming out of the earth so fast and under so much pressure they cannot deal with it - So they burn it

and they burn A LOT of it on huge towers like Roman Candles on steroids
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:04 am

That just ain't right...some starving people in China would pay plenty for all that. :x
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:08 am

They just don't have any way to deal with the gas. No pipeline infrastructure to to move it anywhere and liquefying natural gas is complicated and expensive. It's not like propane. It has to be cooled considerably and pressurized. Off shore oil rigs do the same thing :mad:
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: KLook On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:50 am

They just don't have any way to deal with the gas.

They did it while I was in Texas working in the oil fields 30 odd years ago.
I was always told that a 220 motor was more efficient then 110 and 3 phase is even better. Should have thought that it would not be the same in a resistant heater. Just taking 110 of each leg instead of 110 off of one leg. No matter, the point is that heaters in my ducts will be better then 1500 watt heaters kicking around the house.

Kevin

The rate here is .09483 for electricity.
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:59 am

Klook,I too was always told that 220 is more efficient than 110,so after wiring 400 houses I have learned that i know less than i thought i knew. just my .000000001
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: KLook On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:03 am

Just ran the numbers again.....NG would be the best, but even though the line is just down the street(300 ft), they won't run it up here for just me and I was told the others don't want it. Coal would be next, even at $9 per 50# bag it is about $10/million btu cheaper. It is not available and would have to be arranged and trucked bulk. Then buy a stove/furnace/boiler with air over water coil, and install. $$$$ If I put it in the living rm where the useless fireplace is, I would have to tear out the metal box and get into the stone facade. One of those antique warm mornings would be awesome, but the house is not worth it and the next owner would not have a clue. When I build my own place further out in the country, look out! I am coming back to coal! I will have storage for a TT load and one of those ungodly nice Glenwoods or some such antique.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: KLook On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:05 am

Klook,I too was always told that 220 is more efficient than 110,so after wiring 400 houses I have learned that i know less than i thought i knew. just my .000000001


LOL ;) 8-) Opinions are like, well you know. :roll:

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:26 am

Watts are Watts and nobody is billed by amperage.

You have assumed that half the amps at 220 is a different wattage than the wattage of full amps at 110.

Simple multiplication...P=ExI ... P= 110x10 amps, ... P=220x 5 amps, P= 1100 watts for BOTH.....

Show me my errors please, and show me the perceived or claimed efficiency.

BTW: Yes, 3 phase is better by 1.73 times. :)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: KLook On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:47 am

I am not an electrician. Why bother to have 220 anything? Why were the pump jacks in Texas 660 then? Why was all the electric baseboard I tore out of my house in Maine 220? Just run normal wiring and be done with it.
My uneducated guess is that the greater power requires larger wire diameter. Allowing for loads that are more then 1500 watts on a circuit. In houses that have been wired poorly, like 14 wire, this can cause some heating issues with the wires and outlets as I found. And this house has 12 wire. I was also told that power balance is important at the panel. 220 pulls from both legs of the incoming power and balances out large loads better for better efficiency. Why do "experts" say you will spend less money with a 220 water pump over a 110 water pump for the same work done?
But what do I know?

Kevin

We are way off topic.... :oops:
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:14 am

Instead of burning all that gas off why not just turn the valve & cap the well until they need it? Why keep drilling new if you can't handle what you already have? :?
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:20 am

There are advantages to higher voltages...just that there is no voodoo magic for what you end up paying for. I already mentioned the biggest advantage to higher volts...smaller copper wire is needed for the same exact wattage...cause the amps are cut in half from going up double the volts. And there's more advantages too...but Watts are Watts. :D
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: For those thinking about propane

PostBy: anthony7812 On: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:33 am

KLook wrote:I am not an electrician. Why bother to have 220 anything? Why were the pump jacks in Texas 660 then? Why was all the electric baseboard I tore out of my house in Maine 220? Just run normal wiring and be done with it.
My uneducated guess is that the greater power requires larger wire diameter. Allowing for loads that are more then 1500 watts on a circuit. In houses that have been wired poorly, like 14 wire, this can cause some heating issues with the wires and outlets as I found. And this house has 12 wire. I was also told that power balance is important at the panel. 220 pulls from both legs of the incoming power and balances out large loads better for better efficiency. Why do "experts" say you will spend less money with a 220 water pump over a 110 water pump for the same work done?
But what do I know?

Kevin

We are way off topic.... :oops:


just a summary, you are correct with ampacity and wire sizing. But the big thing with comparision of 220 and 110 is amp draw on a 110 pump vs a 220. You spoke earlier of 3 phase, this is an entire new can of worms. We could go on for days. An easy analogy and i will end it with this, Just say an electric stove will pull 25 amps. You can install 220 with a 30 amp breaker and run 10 gauge wire, now if that was 110 you would need double the ampacity say a 60 amp breaker and maybe get away with 4 gauge wire, ever play with 4 gauge wire? Guess how much a roll of that costs :shock: Then you get into unbalanced loads and ...and ..... and I could go on. Folks go to school for years to fully understand this nonsense ;) Keep it simple and stick with how its been done for years, thier is a reason electricians do things the way we do. Back to topic, Propane is great for gas grills and buddy heaters for ice fishing. I guess its convienent for lanterns too but no way for home heating.
anthony7812
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Nut/Anthracite