coal gun and water storage

coal gun and water storage

PostBy: lzaharis On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:17 am

Thanks for the help with my earlier question.

This next one is a bit more generic in many aspects.


1. I am looking at buying a metal carport/one car garage to keep the coal gun
on a slab and a supply of coal stored there-saddled with crawlspace- no basement
very little room indoors.

1a. running the 15 dollar thermo pex (X distance) from the tanks with a tempering
valve and new plumbing in enclosed carport/one car garage with temperature of 160 degrees.

1b. The location would allow me to use a standby generator to power the the boiler(s) I am currently
heating my domestic hot water before it enters the propane fired hot water heater with no tempering valve..

Since I have a frankenstein of a house with poor insulation and baseboard heat-I hate it-the baseboard heat;
I would rather have steam radiators converted to hot water.

Anyway what are your opinions about storing large volumes of hot water heated by a Coal Gun
to be circulated on demand?.

Here is my thinking IF I can buy 2 or 3 of the 250-gallon insulated tanks from American Heating Systems
that are insulated and self supporting would I be wasting money?

PAYBACK would take longer of course but I would eliminate the Suburban Propain payment entirely !!!

The other thing is this I coould use part of the heat to heat the coal in the bin/pile to dry it with X amount of hot water with a water to forced air heat exchanger on a second short loop.

The house is on a single loop system with two B & G circulators(new last year) installed by me
(quite the learning experience with 3 speed pumps)Taco single speed pumps were 24 years old.

One pump is used to heat home baseboard and the other is used to balance the temperature
between both the oil boiler and the wood and coal hand fired Switzer CWW100 100,000 BTU
(25 gallons of water) and Buderos Logana 024 oil boiler X? amount of water.

I am in a bit of a no win situation as I live on a limited income and I would rather not spend
any money of kerosene as I am on a budget plan with Suburban ProPAIN!!!!! I could use the
money to go on a vacation or spend some of it on a hobby and pay down the remaining mortage..
Last edited by lzaharis on Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
lzaharis
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Switzer
Stove/Furnace Model: CWW100 100,000 btu

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: cabinover On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:05 am

The only hot water I'd keep around is for domestic use, an indirect water heater. The boiler will keep up with what you need it to do.

As for warming your coal, don't bother. Mine eats damp coal just fine, sometimes even wet coal without a hiccup.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:18 am

Why do you want to store all of that heated water? I can't see any advantage, and it will certainly increase the installation and operation costs.

Anthracite isn't like wood, you don't have to run it wide open to achieve a clean burn.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:33 am

If the boiler is sized correctly, you shouldn't need all that hot water storage. If the radiation is inadequate, add more or some zoned kick space fan heaters. A lot cheaper than those storage tanks.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:08 am

I agree.... no need to store hot water (other than domestic if you use an indirect water heater). With coal the heat is stored in the black rocks and used as needed. Only wood burners consider storing the heat. That's because wood burns most efficiently when burned "wide open". Coal isn't that way, not at all. Burn the coal as needed, use the heat as created. Spent the tank money on keeping the heat from escaping the house...be it insulation or better windows.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:18 am

I agree with the others, especially if the storage tanks were outside. They would no doubt loose some heat outside. Don't want that. I like Freddy's idea, use that money to tighten the house up.. :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:38 am

Your already storing energy in the coal - no need to convert and hold it in another form, until needed!
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:57 am

I'm going with the water storage is a complete waste of space and money. The coal gun sounds like an upgrade worthwhile however. Then you can lose the dinosaurs you are heating with now.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: whistlenut On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:44 am

Don't get overwhelmed by the OWB or gasification guys telling you that you need 500, 750 or a 1000 gallon tank. If you are Swedish, Norwegian, or Dutch, then disregard. The coal will moderate VERY nicely, and if you aren't enamored with baseboard, look around for some cast iron radiators. Make sure you get the type with the top connector path and not just the bottom connection. Anyway, you can re-pipe the radiators where you choose to replace baseboard, and live happily ever after.

Contrary to what C-12 recommends, those kick space heaters are dawg crap pieces that DO NOT LAST AND ARE EXPENSIVE. The tiny motors don't like the dust, lint and assorted junk that enters, and stop spinning. Water still circulates, but air doesn't. PITA to repair, replace......
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: greenftechn On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:57 am

I will chime in and support what others have said here. Thermal storage for a coal boiler will be a waste of space and cash. There are doubtless other enhancements you can make using those funds.
greenftechn
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Coal Gun S130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska Kodiak
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: Wood Gun
Stove/Furnace Make: Alternate Heating Systems
Stove/Furnace Model: E100

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: lzaharis On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:26 pm

Thanks for the help folks I appreciate it very much.

My original system used an open to air expansion tank that I never had problems with.


As it is when the time comes all the plumbing will be replaced when the coal gun
as the piping for the wood and oil boiler connctions is 24 plus years old-
(original oil boiler replaced in 1988).

With a simple recirculation loop using the B+G pumps seems to be
the best way to handle this.

The system has two B+G cross type spring check valves, one expansion tank shared
between both boilers, one air scoop, an external domestic hot water heat exchanger
and lots of copper.


The copper being thirty two years old is corroding from the leaking air vents and the issue for me is whether
I want a non bladder expansion tank as the original oil fired air vent tank unit system
had no water leaks at all to deal with.

Option one:
I am thinking as along as the pipe runs are so short I would use schedule 80 galvanised
pipe for it all to splice into the oil boiler.

Option two sell the wood splitter, two original boilers, oil, oil tank, and racor fuel filter system outright as is, have my budget balance refunded to me, and eliminate the oil entirely-I am fed up with the oil supplier AND after finding out the two Reillo Burners "They said" were defective needed to be replaced and there were no parts available for the old ones HAAAAA!!

-Sale of the wood splitter would pay for the S130 and the installation.


Needless to say, I want to be free of them (Suburban Propain) period and as my coal dealer/propane dealer have been a family friend for 2 generations and I trust them more. as I have been a propane customer of theirs since 1987.

If I used an open to air vent tank as was used originally with the Avco Lycoming boiler
I would not have the EXTERNAL corrosion as I had none before the installation of the wood boiler
and the extra plumbing.

I would not have or need a bladder tank as space is at a premium.

I have a back flow preventer installed and probably would install a new one as well as a new feedwater
pressure regulator. BUT I vaguely remember the system being sealed from the potable water(well water)
in my house.

Sorry for the rants but......

I certainly appreciate any and all comments.
lzaharis
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Switzer
Stove/Furnace Model: CWW100 100,000 btu

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: mdhorvath On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:17 pm

With a bladder tank there will be less air in your system and less corrosion. I tossed my non bladder tank after researching the subject. I could always here air in my pipes and pumps and now I don't.
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As far as storage, save your money. I have an s500 heating 8,000 sq ft. and it rarely runs more than 15 min. The most I have seen it run was 30 min and that was with -17° weather.
mdhorvath
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S500 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Pea Anthracite

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:57 pm

Yes, I would go with a pressure bladder expansion tank. They work very well, don't become water logged and really take up less room than a regular expansion tank, usually. I may not be reading your post right, but if you're thinking of an open to atmosphere system, don't. You want a sealed system running at 15 or so PSI. Oxygen in the system is a no, no. :D
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: lzaharis On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Thank you mdHorvath and Carbon12 for your valued comments.


As I have not derailed the AHS S130 train yet:

1. Is it safe to burn a mix of rice and pea in the S130 Coal gun or should I plan only using pea and buckewheat?

2. is my 8" by 12" by 20 foot chimney to big for the forced draft of the S130?

a. The S130 flue pipe would require it to take a left hand turn and
slight elevation to reach the lower thimble in the chimney.

b. saying that, I could raise it on solid concrete blocks to get it near level before it takes the
left hand turn into the chimney.

3.I would have to reduce the thimble down to 5 inch of course but thats a minor issue :)
lzaharis
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Switzer
Stove/Furnace Model: CWW100 100,000 btu

Re: coal gun and water storage

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:53 pm

Consider using two 45 degree turns in the smoke pipe instead of one 90 degree elbow. The smoke pipe should always rise from the boiler to the thimble. Avoid horizontal or nearly horizontal runs as much as you can. Chimney "should" be fine but you never know until everything is up and running.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace