Outdoor Reset

Outdoor Reset

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:32 pm

Dave, Matt,

Are you aware of anyone who is doing this with a LL110, or do you see any limitations with hooking the boiler up with a reset?

Thanks
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:41 pm

My name isn't Dave or Matt, but I do remember this post: honeywell outdoor reset on a wl110.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:59 pm

Rob R. wrote:My name isn't Dave or Matt, but I do remember this post: honeywell outdoor reset on a wl110.



But did you ever stay at the Holiday Inn?


I was going to steer you to the same thread. I may try it this coming season. But I have not really seen a need with mine. Even in the summer I leave my temps the same. 185* and 165* very little ambient heat increase.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Visit Leisure Line Stove

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:01 pm

Flyer5 wrote:
Rob R. wrote:My name isn't Dave or Matt, but I do remember this post: honeywell outdoor reset on a wl110.



But did you ever stay at the Holiday Inn?


I was going to steer you to the same thread. I may try it this coming season. But I have not really seen a need with mine. Even in the summer I leave my temps the same. 185* and 165* very little ambient heat increase.



I'm back to the 'high mass, small boiler' issue that I've had since the install.

I'm looking to run water through the radiators 24/7, and was wondering if you thought that this would be an issue with such a small boiler. I can't imagine why it would be, given that I wire in some motorized mixing valves on the returns that are also tied into the reset.

It looks to be another busy spring and summer...
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:15 pm

kstills wrote:

I'm back to the 'high mass, small boiler' issue that I've had since the install.

I'm looking to run water through the radiators 24/7, and was wondering if you thought that this would be an issue with such a small boiler. I can't imagine why it would be, given that I wire in some motorized mixing valves on the returns that are also tied into the reset.

It looks to be another busy spring and summer...



If you don't mind keep in touch with us over the summer. We will be traveling around to the dealers and if we end up in your area I would like to see the setup if you try it.

Dave
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:43 pm

Outdoor reset works well on tight homes...not so well on drafty ones. If your house has a vastly different heating load on a windy day compared to calm, you will have to run a pretty aggressive reset curve.

If all you want to do is eliminate the stop/start circulation from your high mass zone, you need to pipe it with a circulator that runs regardless of boiler temperature...and pipe it accordingly so the boiler is protected from low temperatures.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:02 pm

Not to post that Rob is wrong because he is correct...but sometimes there is more than one correct answer.
Why do I often reply "It depends" because it really does.

That written = most modern ODR's have potential adjustments to correct for the dwelling that more resembles a corn crib than a well insulated house.

and correct flow coupled with ODR is far more simple and comfortable than bang bang up down control cycling

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:14 pm

I think most of them have a "boost" function that you can setup to counteract the wind effect.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:51 am

Sting wrote:Not to post that Rob is wrong because he is correct...but sometimes there is more than one correct answer.
Why do I often reply "It depends" because it really does.

That written = most modern ODR's have potential adjustments to correct for the dwelling that more resembles a corn crib than a well insulated house.

and correct flow coupled with ODR is far more simple and comfortable than bang bang up down control cycling

Kind Regards
Sting


So I'm reading that there are combination ODRs that control both the boiler and the mixing valves, and that have indoor temp controls to maintain the proper temperature.

Darned if I can find any.....

That seems to be the way I'm going to go, and I'm going to post a thread up in the plumbing section once I get a little more information about how this all 'should' work. Hopefully I'll find out how it 'does' work. :)
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: kstills On: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:17 am

Flyer5 wrote:
kstills wrote:

I'm back to the 'high mass, small boiler' issue that I've had since the install.

I'm looking to run water through the radiators 24/7, and was wondering if you thought that this would be an issue with such a small boiler. I can't imagine why it would be, given that I wire in some motorized mixing valves on the returns that are also tied into the reset.

It looks to be another busy spring and summer...



If you don't mind keep in touch with us over the summer. We will be traveling around to the dealers and if we end up in your area I would like to see the setup if you try it.

Dave


Dave, that sounds like a great idea. I can take a day off and give you the full tour...including the attack terrier.

Let me update you with my most recent findings, and perform a mea culpa at the same time.

My original idea with the boiler when I repiped it last year was to use the old boiler as mass storage to prevent thermal shock to the new boiler by heating ~52 gallons of water instead of just 12. Well, that might have worked if I had it plumbed correctly, but because I was getting primary flow through the indirect at the same time as I was trying to flow through the old boiler, and becuase I returned the zones after the old boiler, it never really did what I had hoped.

What was really killing me, however, was the low output I seemed to be getting from the boiler during the really cold days. I was losing 5 degrees in both zones some days, and it seemed like the boiler just wouldn't keep up.

What I found was that the combined mass would run all the way down to ~130f when the upstairs zone called for heat. Then, I would have to reheat all that water back up to the LL in order to get the downstairs zone satisfied for it's heat call. By the time the boiler reached the LL again, the upstairs was usually calling for heat again.

So, once I figured out that I had that issue going on, I bypassed the old boiler loop and ran the primary through the indirect and through my summer bypass. Based on the results last nite, this is how I should have been running the boiler all along, as the temperature in the house never fell below 70 upstairs or down. The recovery rate of the WL 110 is phenomenel, and it was able to easily keep up with both zones and used a lot less coal doing so. (of course, changing the fan and clearing the stack weren't insignificant modifications :oops: )

All that said, because I am still working with a 12 gallon HWS and I'm heating the house with ~75 gallons of water total, I do believe my best long term solution for both boiler longevity and comfort will be setting up an ODR with a tie in to some mixing valves (I also have two variable speed pumps that I can throw in the mix) to allow me to run the radiators constantly, instead of banging them on and off. I run the primary loop full time anyway, setting up the system to divert the water to the zones as well seems to be a no-brainer.

I do still have an issue with the coal jamming up in the middle of the grate, which has a crack in it. I have no idea if the two issues are related or if this is still a function of the coal source ( I do get clinkers) but that will have to be addressed also.

Let me know when you might come down and I'll place an order for an easy cleanout and a new grate. That way I'll save shipping (don't tell Matt, he charges me when he delivers.... :lol: )
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:50 am

You should have your low limit set to 175 with a ldf of 10 to prevent the pump running past 165*F. Another idea is to install a solar circulator in parallel to the normal circuit and run that 24-7. The ultra low flow rate will not significantly impact space heating but will keep the loop up to temp.

Don't worry we won't charge you for delivery on a drive by. :D
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:34 am

Maybe I am missing something here, but why can't you just start and stop the primary circulator as needed to keep the LL boiler at the temperature you want?

The EFM I installed in my brother's house has a big radiant zone piped off the primary loop. When it calls for heat it is one heck of a load, and quickly brings the boiler down to 160 degrees...the primary circulator shuts off, and the secondary circulator in the radiant loop continues to run until the boiler catches up (which is only a few minutes). This cycle may repeat a few times depending on how much fire was in the pot when the zone first called for heat.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:00 am

Rob, you are describing exactly what I was telling him to do, only issue is if the secondary loop circulator is not controlled by the triple aquastat on the boiler this may not be possible without additional controls.
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:37 am

Rob R. wrote:Maybe I am missing something here, but why can't you just start and stop the primary circulator as needed to keep the LL boiler at the temperature you want?

The EFM I installed in my brother's house has a big radiant zone piped off the primary loop. When it calls for heat it is one heck of a load, and quickly brings the boiler down to 160 degrees...the primary circulator shuts off, and the secondary circulator in the radiant loop continues to run until the boiler catches up (which is only a few minutes). This cycle may repeat a few times depending on how much fire was in the pot when the zone first called for heat.



I can, and that's probably how the majority of systems are plumbed/controlled.

However, since I've been monitoring this thing, it seems to me that the system overall responds best to having heat in the radiators 24/7. So since I'm running a primary anyway, why not send that heated water up into the radiators where it can both heat the house and keep the boiler from running through those heating and cooling cycles?
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Outdoor Reset

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:41 pm

Why do you run the primary circulator all the time?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Visit Leisure Line Stove