Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:19 am

I will be installing a Crane 404 this spring / summer so took the time to make to take some draft measurements while on wood now to see how much work the chimney might need. I started the stove from cold yesterday afternoon so I could get down to the colder stack temps the coal might have. Saying that I have zero faith in magnetic thermometers or IR surface measurement as they have very little to do with what is inside the pipe beyond a circumstantial one. I used to be a licensed boiler mechanic and let it run out after changing trades, no one in the trades measuring combustion would use either method to get real numbers to evaluate efficiency. A in stack probe I believe for stack temperature and a surface temp for the stove I believe as that is what is radiating the heat into the room so valid there in that one case. Here are the numbers and in all cases the stove is surface temp stack in internal with surface temp measuring 1/2 of that or slightly less than 1/2. Chimney is very short at 11 to 12 feet with 5 feet of triple wall and the rest single wall inside the room.

Stack Stove top
300 250 .04
400 275 .05
500 300 .055
600 425 .065
650 500 .075

Settled down air closed down
450 475 .060
425 650 .065

outside weather around 30 light snow baro pressure 29.4 rising house temp around 68 oil burner has not come on in weeks other than for hot water when I turn it one to provide water for dishwasher and a shower once a day, yes I am single no kids living here LOL.

I could add 3 more feet for a few hundred dollars as I will need to fab up braces that Duravent says are needed beyond 5 feet of standing triple wall and might get into zoning issues. Is this going to be enough to burn coal as is or changes mandatory?
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:00 am

Try it the way it is. Straight up and out with one elbow at the stove will draft very easily even with very low stack temp.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:52 am

franco b wrote:Try it the way it is. Straight up and out with one elbow at the stove will draft very easily even with very low stack temp.



I agree.

Those are decent numbers at the lower temps. And, if you should find that you don't have good enough draft under certain weather conditions, you still have the option of adding more pipe.

I made inexpensive, but strong braces for a metal chimney on my last house by flattening the ends of galvanized electrical conduit in a bench vise and drilling 1/4 inch holes in the flats.

The pipe clamp was just 3/4 inch galvanized flat stock from the hardware store. I put a right angle bend in each end using the bench vise, then just bent the flat stock to the pipe curvature by hand. Left a gap between the bent ends of the pipe clamp so that a bolt through both bent ends would pull the clamp tight.

A few 1/4 inch lag bolts through a dab of roofing tar into the roof held the braces and 1/4-20 bolts to attach them to the pipe clamp on either side of the bent ends. Took me as much time to make as it did to go to the hardware store and back.

Held up fine to hurricane Gloria and we were hit by the eye of that one !

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

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Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:05 pm

I agree to try it. The .04 draft you saw at your lowest stack temp is what I ran my hand fed at.

My baro was set to open at .04. I would put foil over it if temps warmed up to the 50's and the draft would stay above .03 at a low burn in the hand fed. I run the stoker at the same setting and foil the baro in the same way too. The readings for the stoker are generally .04 when at full burn and .03 when in idle mode. Although the high wind last night had some peaks on the manometer of .07 and the baro was wide open.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:38 pm

OK will give it a try though probably will not have the weather for it until next fall. In CT the weather has been bouncing from 50 to 20's every few days and stove is not close to being finished and I have plenty of wood. Tonight is supposed to be in the teens and tomorrow 50 go figure. The noon time weather just predicted a record low tomorrow morning of 7 degrees and 48 at noon 50 Saturday and snow on St. Patrick's day..LOL.

Ok nest question how shaky is it going to be with a MPD and the draft readings I have. I am thinking I really do not want a baro control without being able to pull 0.1 draft as my best with wood fire blazing was 0.075 and average around 0.05. Knowing they leak when closed I don't want the chance of a CO leak if I lose draft for some reason and I don't want to lose heated room air up the chimney, sounds too much like opening a window to me plus more make up air needed so another drafty floor event. Would the plan be to close the MPD until 0.04 with the coal in cruise mode an hour after shake and reload? How low can it go before setting a CO alarm off?
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:44 pm

I am a little slow this morning, you state you will be installing a Crane 404 in the future. You provided a list of temperatures and draft measurements in units of water column and also length of chimney etc. All the while burning wood. My question is where and what type of appliance is this coming from? Like I said a little slow today, if this IS the Crane 404 installed and running on wood, why not burn coal now?
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly coat rack
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:25 pm

Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:37 pm

ddahlgren wrote:Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.


Stack surface temp of 125 and a mano reading of .04.
Is that with an MPD open, closed, or what ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:15 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
ddahlgren wrote:Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.


Stack surface temp of 125 and a mano reading of .04.
Is that with an MPD open, closed, or what ?

Paul

No MPD in woodstove this is draft testing before changing to coal.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:18 pm

[quote="ddahlgren"]Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.[/quote]

If I ran a wood stove in my chimney free wheeling, no mpd in place, the stack probe would look like a happy meal toy spinning, blinking and melting. The cyclonic noise rushing thru the flu would be deafening and I would need to change my shorts.

Coal is a different animal, that is why I asked my last question. All those data points are useless throw the Crane in the pipe and load her with coal and then you can make some head way.
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly coat rack
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:59 pm

michaelanthony wrote:
ddahlgren wrote:Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.


If I ran a wood stove in my chimney free wheeling, no mpd in place, the stack probe would look like a happy meal toy spinning, blinking and melting. The cyclonic noise rushing thru the flu would be deafening and I would need to change my shorts.

Coal is a different animal, that is why I asked my last question. All those data points are useless throw the Crane in the pipe and load her with coal and then you can make some head way.


Well I don't eat fast food so could not identify a happy meal toy in any way but assume silly plastic bits, I used to work on oil fired boilers that burned up to 33 gallons an hour 12-14 ft. of fire 6 ft in diameter so I don't soil myself quite as easy as you over a little noise, an AR-15 while annoying is just a distraction. Crew chief cars that make between 800 and 1000 hp and a bit noisy still not breath taking 5000 is. Your chimney is yours mine is mine and they have nothing to do with each other. So what's your point beyond pounding your chest to feel good about you? Coal is coal and wood is wood and draft is temperature differential driven and does not know wood or coal only temperatures and chimney height. So your point is???????????
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:29 pm

[quote="ddahlgren"] Well I don't eat fast food so could not identify a happy meal toy in any way but assume silly plastic bits, I used to work on oil fired boilers that burned up to 33 gallons an hour 12-14 ft. of fire 6 ft in diameter so I don't soil myself quite as easy as you over a little noise, an AR-15 while annoying is just a distraction. Crew chief cars that make between 800 and 1000 hp and a bit noisy still not breath taking 5000 is. Your chimney is yours mine is mine and they have nothing to do with each other. So what's your point beyond pounding your chest to feel good about you? Coal is coal and wood is wood and draft is temperature differential driven and does not know wood or coal only temperatures and chimney height. So your point is???????????[/quote]

My point is as follows: A) you equate happy meal with fast food, 1 for you
B) I used to do stuff too, and still do, 1 for me
C) you spelled soil right hmmm, 2 for you
D) you're in a public coal forum asking questions about draft probabilities in a wood stove burning wood.
E) So what's your point?
F) how's your chest?
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box, vogelzang pot belly coat rack
Coal Size/Type: Pea, and a little nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:53 pm

michaelanthony wrote:
ddahlgren wrote: Well I don't eat fast food so could not identify a happy meal toy in any way but assume silly plastic bits, I used to work on oil fired boilers that burned up to 33 gallons an hour 12-14 ft. of fire 6 ft in diameter so I don't soil myself quite as easy as you over a little noise, an AR-15 while annoying is just a distraction. Crew chief cars that make between 800 and 1000 hp and a bit noisy still not breath taking 5000 is. Your chimney is yours mine is mine and they have nothing to do with each other. So what's your point beyond pounding your chest to feel good about you? Coal is coal and wood is wood and draft is temperature differential driven and does not know wood or coal only temperatures and chimney height. So your point is???????????


My point is as follows: A) you equate happy meal with fast food, 1 for you
B) I used to do stuff too, and still do, 1 for me
C) you spelled soil right hmmm, 2 for you
D) you're in a public coal forum asking questions about draft probabilities in a wood stove burning wood.
E) So what's your point?
F) how's your chest?


So 2 to 1 I win and you never replied to d, e or f. Are wood btu different than coal ones? if so why?
Let me help you...
D) btu is a btu it knows nothing about where it comes from
E) see D
F) fine though not as puffy as yours exhale!
Last edited by ddahlgren on Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:10 pm

Yes coal Btu are different from wood in the way they are generated. Wood is half gas while only a small percentage of coal is. This leads to different behavior in the stove. To simulate a coal fire with wood it would be best to let a large charge of wood burn down to the charcoal stage where it will be very similar to the carbon burning of a coal fire. Your last set of readings, I think did this since you stated it was time to reload.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Draft ayailable for Crane 404 install

PostBy: dcrane On: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:26 pm

michaelanthony wrote:
ddahlgren wrote:Ok just took another data point. Probe in stack 250 surface stack 125 stove top 300 draft 0.04 23F outside 70 in house time to reload.


If I ran a wood stove in my chimney free wheeling, no mpd in place, the stack probe would look like a happy meal toy spinning, blinking and melting. The cyclonic noise rushing thru the flu would be deafening and I would need to change my shorts.

Coal is a different animal, that is why I asked my last question. All those data points are useless throw the Crane in the pipe and load her with coal and then you can make some head way.


Could not have said it better myself, Ive been dealing just fine with the erratic weather and my stove has not gone out (from 55 to 0 on any given day around here :doh: ), days of 55 i do open my MPD and open the primary slightly to keep it live, days of 0 my mpd is closed 100% . The woodstove your using now is just not going to tell you much about how the coal stove will operate, it does get to a temp point that wont allow a coal bed to burn (150 degree top center plate temp is about as low as like to let her chug along at).
dcrane
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

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