Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:38 pm

Lightning wrote:My thinking is that adding more air will increase house turnover which results in needing more heat, more coal..

And to think, I was about to unsubscribe from this topic because I don't have a Hot Blast stove, when along comes this great discussion! :!:

Let's assume for a minute that we have a completely sealed stove system, where 100% of the combustion air comes from outside and is piped directly into the stove with no leakage to the house, and there is no baro to complicate things. In effect, the stove would then be no different (for infiltration purposes) from an electric heater. It would be providing heat but not affecting air infiltration at all. So my gut feeling is, using outside air for combustion will DECREASE house turnover and result in needing less heat, less coal. :?: :o

Ouch! Brain Hurt!
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rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:43 pm

So does my furnace being in the basement make any difference in the stack effect upstairs? And my house is pretty well insulated I've got just a basement and first floor, I guess I could always just crack a basement window but id rather have it piped over to the furnace, my basement is open no walls
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:46 pm

That's what I was thinking rberq
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

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Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: KingCoal On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:00 pm

yes, the stove combustion and exhaust would be out of the infiltration cycle in that case but..................................

you would still have the stack effect neutral plain and it's attempts to draw air into the house and force heat out because combustion and flue draft are not the main contributors to that phenom.

i believe you really do get further, faster, by closing up as many of the places for air to get in and heat to escape from the whole envelope first because it cancels the stack effect and you can then admit any amount of ventilating air you wish with out loss.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:39 pm

Alright well I'm ahead of that step then because I consider my house to be pretty air tight
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:35 am

rberq wrote:Let's assume for a minute that we have a completely sealed stove system, where 100% of the combustion air comes from outside and is piped directly into the stove with no leakage to the house, and there is no baro to complicate things. In effect, the stove would then be no different (for infiltration purposes) from an electric heater. It would be providing heat but not affecting air infiltration at all. So my gut feeling is, using outside air for combustion will DECREASE house turnover and result in needing less heat, less coal.


Yes I agree... A "sealed to the stove" dedicated outside combustion air source would not allow extra air into the house and therefor not effect house air turnover. I'm leery of this.. Since the pressure outside the basement wall should be slightly positive as compared to the air the stove is in. You could have a situation where the stove goes positive pressure (forcing carbon monoxide into the room) if there is a manual damper being used (instead of a baro)..

Then there's the manual pipe damper vs. baro dilemma.. :lol: Oh joy... It all boils down to what you believe is of benefit. To me, the beneficial factors of using a baro outweigh any increase in air infiltration since only part of the air that the baro and combustion use is additional infiltration.


KingCoal wrote:the neutral plain runs right thru the vertical center of 4 of my worst fitting windows (so it's pushing air out the top of them and pulling it in the bottom, again about to be remedied )

Keep in mind that positive and negative pressure just a couple feet above or below the neutral pressure plane will be very subtle. But wind will have a huge effect pushing and pulling air thru leaky windows here.. Stack effect pressures will be greatest at the lowest point in the house (negative) and then at the highest point in the house (positive).. I like where you are going with this though. Its just as important to seal where air is getting out as it is where air is getting in..

hotblast1357 wrote:Alright well I'm ahead of that step then because I consider my house to be pretty air tight

Maybe it is tight. If it was too tight the chimney would have trouble drafting. This brings me back to what I mentioned earlier. I believe a dedicated air source is only beneficial in a poor drafting situation. Otherwise its contributing to turnover of the house air.. Like when its warm out (40's - 50's) I'll open my basement window so the neutral pressure plane will fall to the basement level giving the chimney more pulling power. During warm weather burns I'm not concerned with more house air turnover. Probably need to open a window on the first floor if it gets too warm anyways.. :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:09 am

ah, i apprec. the clarification on the progressive nature of the pressure variance. that also helps me with the primary focus areas where i can achieve the greatest results of remedy quickest

great stuff, thanks

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:23 am

Lightning wrote:... when its warm out (40's - 50's) I'll open my basement window so the neutral pressure plane will fall to the basement level giving the chimney more pulling power

But doesn't that also give the HOUSE more pulling power? So it all nets out.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:45 am

With the window in the basement open, the pressure in the basement balances with the pressure outside instead of a slight negative pressure at that location. This helps the chimney since now its not competing with any negative pressure in the basement.

As for the house, pressure at the top of the house would increase too.

KingCoal wrote:ah, i apprec. the clarification on the progressive nature of the pressure variance. that also helps me with the primary focus areas where i can achieve the greatest results of remedy quickest

great stuff, thanks

steve


Happy to help partner :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:53 am

Well I'm going to have say that my attached garage is prob what gives my stove its draft, its connected to the basement via homemade doors that are not air tight, but I am also semi heating the garage with a 6 inch duct out to it, but I know my garage doors are not sealed great because when its windy they leak bad, so back to my baro and stove, I guess that the only time it will benefit to have fresh air is when they are pulling hard, above .04-.05 and when the wind is blowing, which is a LOT, because then it would HOPEFULLY be pulling that air from my fresh tube, because I would think it would take the path of least resistance.. And then it would almost be like having it hooked directly? But then when its not pulling hard it probably wouldn't take any from the tube? If I can find a way to put a flap in there, some have said a backwards dryer vent, but idk how that would look on the outside of my house.. another thing to is that if I crack those doors to the garage during the heating season, it seams like sometimes you can feel the house pulling air from it, but its cooler out there even with the 6 inch duct out there, but sometimes when I fire the wood stove up out there, and I open the doors to " share" the heat, like on those freezing days! The garage will go to 80 but that heat wont flow to the basement lol I just can't seam to make the heat go where it wants, but maybe that's a different topic
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:52 am

HB,

based on the first 4 lines of this reply it seems you have all the fresh make up air you need coming in the garage and basement doors.

this being the case i doubt you would get any benefit from bringing in any more.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Comforter Stove Works
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:59 am

Well if I could I would like to stop the air infiltration from the garage too, maybe I'm just asking for to much lol
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:18 am

The infiltration from the garage is being caused from the 6 inch warm air duct you have running out there. Its effectively pumping air out of your house creating negative pressure in the whole house. You need a cold air return from the garage or do away with the warm air duct going out there. Its causing huge infiltration of the whole house partner...
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:08 am

I was going to put some register vents in the door that way it could come back into the basement as a type of return
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: hot blast 1357M
Baseburners & Antiques: coral andes 213 baseburner
Coal Size/Type: anthracite stove/nut/pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Clayton / Hot Blast Mods and Tending for Anthracite

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:12 am

That would help but your still depending on the negative pressure acting on the whole house to pull it back in.. it will inevitably cause more infiltration in other parts of the house that aren't necessary.

Fixing this issue would be my first step in fixing infiltration.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

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