SS Chimney Liners

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oilman On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:25 pm

McGiever wrote:SS liners are not all equal, uninsulated flex being the worst.

The big controversy is that for the casual reader to happen along and reads just a "snippet" of someone saying "It's no big deal just throw in a SS flex liner and you're good to go cause you got a warranty, the building inspector approves and you can just throw in a free replacement liner and the stove will hardly go cold in the meantime.

It ain't that easy and...No...you are not the exception and "just might get lucky" and beat the odds this one time. ;)

Sorry :(


This is the problem. You are right- all liners are not equal........nor chimneys...I have customers with the old Metalbestos 316 alloy chimneys from the 80's-on coal-still good...or with 25 year old chimney liners -on coal- still OK.
Putting a properly installed liner in is MUCH more than just sticking a piece of cheap corragated SS in..........that you don't even KNOW what alloy it really is......(yes, alot of cheating going on out there with the web sellers........your 316 might actually be 400) Another problem- most liners I see are absolutely installed WAY wrong........by supposed "pros"
Yes, masonry or a poured liner is better for long term corrosion -free operation. BUT-not everyone can go there.

Safety- I have seen several CO cases with coal inserts "sliders"- that's slid in with no full liner-and with any hand fed, it MUST be installed like a wood unit--because it CAN be a wood unit.

As far as the "shots" go- I am a professional installer- I MUST install it to code-if it needs a liner, so be it. (if it is a insert, it has to have one to meet code) I am NOT doing it to rob anyone........do not throw me in with the chimney bandits out there.....

The insert I will install next week will have a liner........when I looked at the job, I could see something wasn't right- we ended up cutting a wall open at living room level and opening up the chimney to look inside- I was right- a total mess including the tile liner resting against a wooden header soaked with creosote-yes, that's right- a tile just in full contact with wood with no block or brick in between. Now, this guy plans on taking the hopper out and burning some wood in the fall and spring.What would have happened if he listened to this forum and just stuck it in there???? And lit off that creosote everywhere?
Please- don't give advice if you don't know- SOMEONE WILL END UP DEAD LISTENING TO CHIMNEY ADVICE GIVEN ON THIS FORUM............coal can be deadly-it doesn't take much to go into CO............
If you doubt me ....well,whatever.....

By the way- please don't take anything personal by my rants- it's just that I am usually the guy called in when the typical DIY install isn't working and I witness some crazy things done by people who won't seek or take advice given by their dealer.........things that could kill the other people in the home..........so, I am very testy on this.......I have been involved in situations where the house burned down or people were done in by CO.........all avoidable......please be careful.
oilman
 

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:26 pm

om, if you don't want to be thrown in with the liner bandits---don't state falsehoods like " with an insert, you MUST have a liner" :( PS--why did you tear that next jobs wall up if, as you wrongly state--it HAS to have a liner????????????????????????????? PSSSS- om, I've wondered what kind of coal burning unit do you use?
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:25 pm

In MA the liner 'must' go to the top...
MA Code...
I am willin' to bet "when I looked at the job, I could see something wasn't right" ...
Was something that told him to do so...
When you install stuff as a business you are liable...
I carry $1 million in coverage just because ya never know...
No pucker factor when my friends business burnt to the ground...
And I was working on the phone system and computers that day...
And was the last one out...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove


Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: blrman07 On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:34 pm

Gekko wrote:
Fire375 wrote:
NFPA 211 requires all inserts to be installed with a chimney connector pipe (stainless steel or the equivalent) from the insert and a up a minimum into the first clay flue liner.

Maximum flue size is limited. NFPA 211-00 and IRC-06,-03,-00 requires that the fireplace chimney be no larger than 3 times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar. Flues larger than the maximum allowed size must be relined.

An Interior chimney max size is 3 times the flue collar area.
Max size for an exterior (one or more walls of chimney below the roofline exposed to the outside) is 2 times the flue collar area


And there you go.




I read and reread NFPA 211 and I couldn't find this wording that you quoted saying you had to have stainless steel from the insert and a minimum into the first clay flue liner.

Could you please tell me which section of NFPA 211 this is located? I would like to be able to quote this to people when they ask me about insert installations. And before you ask, I am a bi-vocational pastor and I do coal unit installations.

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: installing a VC 2310 this summer
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: scalabro On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:16 pm

Here is a 2003 NFPA version I found.

I wonder if (7) means no Baro Dampers or eh, check dampers allowed.....uh oh :crazy:


12.4.5 Connection to Masonry Fireplaces.

12.4.5.1 A natural draft solid fuel-burning appliance such as a stove or insert shall be permitted to use a masonry fireplace flue where the following conditions are met:

(1) There is a connector that extends from the appliance to the flue liner.
(2) The cross-sectional area of the flue is no smaller than the cross-sectional area of the flue collar of the appliance, unless otherwise specified by the appliance manufacturer.
(3)*The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with no walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than three times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(4) The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with one or more walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than two times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(5) If the appliance vents directly through the chimney wall above the smoke chamber, there shall be a noncombus- tible seal below the entry point of the connector.
(6) The installation shall be such that the chimney system can be inspected and cleaned.
(7) Means shall be provided to prevent dilution of combustion products in the chimney flue with air from the habitable space.
Last edited by scalabro on Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford No. 2, PP Stewart 14, Crawford 40
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired forced hot air

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: J F Graham On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:21 pm

Rev Larry, I did not start this thread to bestow confrontation, however maybe it turned out to be a good thing. Oilman, did the right thing by informing all of us to "BE CAREFUL". I have been doing masonry for a very long time; However I have learned early on that there is always so much more to learn. Knowledge, research and caution is what oilman was telling us. Maybe it's a good thing that he got pissed off enough to come out of retirement and shed a very professional spin on such a controversial subject.
jIM
J F Graham
 

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oliver power On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:36 pm

OK fellow members, I t must be local codes (Not National codes) that say inserts must have a continuous stainless steel liner.
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oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:13 pm

Good post OP--I love words like OFTEN & COMMONLY--I think one thing we CAN all agree on is SAFETY being of the utmost importance :)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oilman On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:14 pm

freetown fred wrote:om, if you don't want to be thrown in with the liner bandits---don't state falsehoods like " with an insert, you MUST have a liner" :( PS--why did you tear that next jobs wall up if, as you wrongly state--it HAS to have a liner????????????????????????????? PSSSS- om, I've wondered what kind of coal burning unit do you use?


It doesn't say it has to be stainless.......it can be s/s to a poured liner, or s/s to a clay liner that is not too big. Any 6" insert would not meet the code.............You have no idea what I'm talking about with the job I referred to- the liner must go into a properly constructed chimney. I am not wrong about codes, I referred to the word "liner"........this could be poured, clay or SS.
Oh, and by the way I have burned coal since 1989 myself. I have owned Harman, Alaska, EFM and Keystoker units. And by the way, I work on or install more coal units in a year than 90% of the members here will see in a lifetime. So, don't even go there.
I always try to recommend masonry when possible, by the way.
oilman
 

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:26 pm

I was just curious, being you couldn't put it in your profile since 2006 :o All I can comment on is what you SAY in your posts om, nothin personal. I guess I'll just have to deal with the fact that according to your interpretation of National Codes, there's a whole bunch of illegal stove installs in CNY.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oilman On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:49 pm

.
freetown fred wrote:I was just curious, being you couldn't put it in your profile since 2006 :o All I can comment on is what you SAY in your posts om, nothin personal. I guess I'll just have to deal with the fact that according to your interpretation of National Codes, there's a whole bunch of illegal stove installs in CNY.

It's all in black and white Fred. I have the NYS Uniform mechanical book right here. It goes with everything the other guys quoted from NFPA 211. You are darn right there are alot of illegal installs out there......which doesn't really matter to me.......the thing I'm trying to get across is I CAN"T do it any other way but to the code, or actually over code in my case. Because if something bad happened and the authorities and/or lawyers find that what I did didn't jive with NYS or NFPA codes, I am SCREWED...... :o I lose.........I don't want people to think I'm requiring liners on FP inserts to just get into their wallets.......I HAVE to....if they want to get someone in to do a poured liner that's fine too. Anyway, fireplace jobs are a very small percentage in the coal world, so we are arguing over slivers...........98% of our coal boiler and furnace installs (which is most of my jobs anyway) we just use the existing chimney as long as the clay liner is decent and not falling apart or something. In fact, I have 2 boiler jobs pending where I pretty much insisted that they have a block chimney built as metal just wouldn't go right.
oilman
 

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: blrman07 On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:59 pm

I asked the question about where in the code did it specify that you had to use SS because I couldn't find it anywhere. It has been a couple of years since I read NFPA but I didn't remember ever seeing that. I do believe I was correct in that NFPA does not specify anywhere that you have to use SS anything. It allows it but does not specify it. Very big distinction.

I never had a problem with properly sized chimney and such as I am aware of the limits applied by NFPA. The last township I lived in opted out of requiring permits and inspections for anything except new construction. That was a joke since they hadn't had anything new built in the township since 92. They were so far in the deep sewer that they couldn't afford the township secretary any more to issue permits much less keep track of inspections.

Where I had the problem was telling people that they HAD TO connect their appliance to the approved chimney using SS anything. Maybe your local code requires it and if so I would include the caveat that the LOCAL code requires this and not the national code.

Local codes in Pa change from county to county and sometimes even township to township. We have a lot of new people reading this forum to get some information and maybe in the future if a local code requires it we can state that up front and eliminate several pages of trying to apply NY code to a location in Mass. or Pa. or for that matter Boise Idaho.

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa..
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: installing a VC 2310 this summer
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oliver power On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:15 pm

freetown fred wrote:I was just curious, being you couldn't put it in your profile since 2006 :o All I can comment on is what you SAY in your posts om, nothin personal. I guess I'll just have to deal with the fact that according to your interpretation of National Codes, there's a whole bunch of illegal stove installs in CNY.
Well, not really Fred. All the grandfathered installs are just fine. You can do an install according to code today. Tomorrow code changes. That doesn't make your install illegal. As we talked, if one has to ask, the system will be more than happy to tell you it's wrong . And what you MUST do in order to bring it up to date. EXAMPLE: Law makers pass laws saying it is illegal to drive after drinking a couple beers. And You MUST obey the law. Then they get all drunked up, and drive recklessly down the road themselves. :? How do you think all them polititions got there big red noses? :D
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: oilman On: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:41 pm

I will say that 98% of the inspectors I deal with are great. A couple are very.............well, strange in their interps., of codes. But, it always works out.

As far as Rev. Larry's question, I would say if someone followed NFPA 211 and the instructions that come with the products used, their install would be fine 99% of the time in any state. Safe for sure.
oilman
 

Re: SS Chimney Liners

PostBy: dcrane On: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:37 am

Interesting & Entertaining thread for sure... its great to see :clap:

For my two cents... I would NEVER take a viable clay/terra cotta lined chimney built to last 200 years and line it with SS to last 2-5 with coal (or even 10 years if your one of the "lucky" few). The warranty on SS liners has always been a hokes because of the labor, time, mess, hassle of installing the new "so called free" SS liner. If my clay lined chimney was grossly oversized I'd do anything and everything before turning it forever into a permanent SS lined chimney, (thats just me)! Its just common sense that flue gases containing corrosive acids do not belong joined/mixed with metals that react adversely with those very same corrosive acids. I know a lot of folks have to adhere to "codes" or "inspectors" and have to follow the guidance of who they "perceive" to be more knowledgeable before they will "act" on anything... It does not make those codes or inspectors "right"! Taking a viable Tera Cotta lined chimney flu and turning it into a SS lined flu should be the absolute last & hopeless avenue to pursue (and even then, I personally would find another way if i intended to use coal to heat my house).

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Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404