Another plant bites the dust

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:46 pm

What do they care what the retail price is when you and I paid for them to drill it?

And before you point the finger at the "evil" energy companies, remember that the government you love so much makes far and away more money on energy that the company producing it.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: samhill On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:36 am

Jpete, do you really think that there is ever enough profit this day & age? I do love my Country but the Gov. desperately does need work, please explain how the Fed. Gov. makes more from energy.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:42 am

It's not easy to find a way to disagree with jpete and samhill at the same time, but I'll give it a try. :lol:

jpete, when you say "you and I paid for them to drill it", it seems like you are arguing against taxes that are based on profits rather than gross revenues. Can't basically any industry deduct its reasonable and actual expenses before it pays tax? No doubt accounting rules and practices may affect the year when the expenses can be taken, but that's "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later", not "I'm paying for what you're doing".

samhill, I don't see why the capping of wells is a bad thing. Maybe if they were all under common control, but I don't think that's the case. AFAIK the decisions to drill those wells were made years ago, when it may have been expected that gas prices would be higher than they have turned out to be. AFAIK the new wells have comparatively short useful lives, and the owner needs to decide whether it's more rational to produce vs. hold the "inventory" if the well comes on-line when market prices are unexpectedly low. To me, it's good news for consumers and the economy as a whole - NG is really cheap, and if it goes up too much there is a bunch of installed production capacity ready to come on-line. All else equal, it seems like this should help to stabilize NG prices.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite


Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: samhill On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:07 am

Pacowy, I'm not saying that it is always a bad thing just that some of the reasoning behind it sometimes becomes flawed. I don't know about every state or every driller but I do know that they have some very shrewd legal teams behind them, my friend only gets royalties for one of five wells on his property. Some of the area people near him are getting little to nothing because there is not a producing well, they are capable of production but are capped. Meanwhile in Pa. there are pipelines being put in place to connect to an existing line to a previously mothballed refinery that was modernized to compress NG for the European market which is also OK if we get the tax breaks back that they have been given & our domestic costs to us aren't artificially inflated. I think all of this along with many other things was determined long ago to benefit the few.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:26 am

I guess I'm not persuaded about the "planning" part. I think the changes in the NG markets largely reflect good old-fashioned competition, and in some instances have surprised even the people who are supposed to know. I don't think so many wells would be drilled in advance (and capped) if there were some big scheme, and if it turns out we can export gas to compete in world markets I would think of that as a good thing, even if it wasn't part of the plan when drilling incentives were implemented.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:21 pm

Pacowy wrote:It's not easy to find a way to disagree with jpete and samhill at the same time, but I'll give it a try. :lol:

jpete, when you say "you and I paid for them to drill it", it seems like you are arguing against taxes that are based on profits rather than gross revenues. Can't basically any industry deduct its reasonable and actual expenses before it pays tax? No doubt accounting rules and practices may affect the year when the expenses can be taken, but that's "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later", not "I'm paying for what you're doing".

Mike


I'm not generally a fan of Warren Buffett but he hit the nail on the head when he said that every line of tax code is there so someone DOESN'T have to pay taxes.

Government certainly isn't going to do without that revenue so the 100% they write off(what can YOU write off at 100%?) has to be made up for by someone else. That typically boils down to you and me.

Why are exploration costs deductible at all? Is it not possible for a company to lose money due to their poor decisions? If I decide to go into the buggy whip making business, will D.C. backstop my losses? Of course not. I made a bad business decision and I'll pay the price for it.

Tax credits and subsidies just distort the market. I have no idea what the energy market would look like if they were eliminated, but I'm willing to take the chance. Maybe we'd all be reading by whale oil lamps, or maybe we'd have limitless power from cold fusion. No one can say where the road not taken leads. But I'm still against all the write offs.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:30 pm

samhill wrote:Jpete, do you really think that there is ever enough profit this day & age? I do love my Country but the Gov. desperately does need work, please explain how the Fed. Gov. makes more from energy.


I don't believe in "excess profits" as some say.

I'm no forensic accountant, so I have to go with published reports, but I've read that "Big Oil" makes about a nickel on a gallon of gas but the Feds make about 18 cents and my state gets an additional 39 cents IIRC.

And government doesn't have to do a thing except act like Uncle Pauly from "Goodfellas"

Search YouTube for the Goodfellas "restaurant scene" for a better explanation. :D
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:03 am

Big oil makes a bit more than a nickel/gal. only a few pennies but still more, the tax doesn't go up nor down on a regular basis. Big oil makes their money off of big volumes of crude in fact many like Exon are actually out of the gas business station wise, not enough profit there for them but did you ever wonder how the local station owners of which there are now very few but were once common but let's now say the local owner distributors can afford to make ends meet if they have even less profit & pay all that overhead? Do the math once, how many gallons of gas at a nickel a gal. would someone have to sell to even make half of say what Exon made? They are called big oil not big gas for a big reason do a search of what all has oil derivatives as a ingredient.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:03 am

Interestingly, shipping crude oil half way around the world by supertanker adds 2 cents per gallon to the price of gasoline at the pump. :?
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:09 am

If only government would nationalize the oil companies then the price would be much lower and government would make more money, just like Mexico.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Pacowy On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:21 am

jpete wrote: I'm no forensic accountant, so I have to go with published reports, but I've read that "Big Oil" makes about a nickel on a gallon of gas but the Feds make about 18 cents and my state gets an additional 39 cents IIRC.

And government doesn't have to do a thing except act like Uncle Pauly from "Goodfellas"


AFAIK the 18 cents goes directly into the Highway Trust Fund, and is used to pay for highway maintenance, etc. It hasn't been changed for decades, and probably no longer covers the actual wear cars and light trucks put on highways. I'm not familiar with the funding arrangements of individual states, but generally those taxes are a lot more like user fees to defray repair costs than they are like profits.

Mike
Last edited by Pacowy on Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Carbon12 On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:38 am

1 barrel of crude oil is 42 gallons. Of that about 20 gallons of gasoline and 10 gallons of diesel fuel can be produced, so 30 gallons of motor fuel total. At $100/barrel that works out to $3.33/ gallon for motor fuels. That's BEFORE transport, refining, distribution and sale and taxes. The remainder of the barrel of crude is made into non motor fuel products which somewhat lower the pump price of motor fuels. The global average price for gasoline is about $5.50/ gallon. The highest is in Norway at about $10.75/ gallon. Big oil makes it's money in volume, not mark up. Your local gas station only makes a couple of cents per gallon. Supply and demand ultimately determine the cost of a gallon of gasoline. The US actually exports gasoline to other countries where they can sell it for more $$$. That's capitalism.
Carbon12
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite
Other Heating: Heat Pump/Forced Hot Air Oil Furnace

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:10 am

Pacowy, if your going to quote me then why not what I wrote instead of Jpete?
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: Pacowy On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:30 am

samhill wrote:Pacowy, if your going to quote me then why not what I wrote instead of Jpete?


Sorry, I was trying to quote jpete but his quote started by quoting you and I didn't remove enough of that formatting. I think it's fixed now.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Another plant bites the dust

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:48 am

No problem, I can amass enough enemies all on my own. :lol:
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75