Just who are the sheep

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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri May 09, 2014 7:27 pm

samhill wrote:Flyer, I believe that was Edwards during the debates. He was a scumbag but had a few good ideas.



I guess that is the big problem with a republic, once the politicians that we vote in to represent us start instead to represent only themselves. We lose!
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: franco b On: Fri May 09, 2014 8:57 pm

samhill wrote: All I'm saying is if you haven't been there then you don't really know, you would rather see school lunch programs & day care cut than have a millionaire take a little pay cut. You worry about the needs of businesses but don't give a hoot about the fellow man, that's a shame & before you go on about abuses there are some everywhere & they could be weeded out if politicians had any. We are conversing on the only thing that is needed for lobbying, look up the definition of lobbying, it should be illegal. People can survive without business but without people there would be no business.

To answer in reverse first. People would not survive without business. No food or power.
I do worry about business when government distorts markets and makes the cost of housing, food, health care, and education much higher than if they let the market be, and spends many billions doing it. Billions better spent on school lunches and day care which you care about. Maybe we could afford them if the government was not so busy creating new millionaires and killing jobs.
As for me being there you forget that I was born in 1931, right in the middle of depression. Attitudes were a lot different then and I believe people were happier without this frenzy of material goods. Crime was certainly lower. To lock a car was unheard of and many houses also. As a kid, to find jobs was an all consuming concern if you wanted anything. At the age of nine i worked one summer at the rowboat renting station from 6 AM to 6 PM for one dollar a day. Delivered papers, telegrams,drugs from the drugstore, groceries. Cut lawns. shoveled snow, turned over gardens. Rowed miles tending eel pots. Anything to make a few dollars and most adults did the same thing. I can't remember any moaning. My friends did the same. Good training to make your own way. And then the kids who were five years older including my brother went off to war, and won. Some never came back.

I do sympathize with you in what must have been hell on earth working in a steel mill and then to lose even that. To avoid that sort of thing, except for a few years I always worked for myself. I do miss those good old depression years though. I wonder if the present population could handle it. I think we will find out.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: tjnamtiw On: Fri May 09, 2014 9:24 pm

4 pages based on an article from the Huffington Post linked by a troll. What is wrong with this picture, folks?

REVISED: OK, maybe not a troll because the more I read the more I, and this is tough, tend to agree with some of the stuff he says. Sorry, Sam. On this one, you are closer to the center than most times. :sick:
Last edited by tjnamtiw on Fri May 09, 2014 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: KLook On: Fri May 09, 2014 9:32 pm

There were thousands of skilled people in just about every craft but no jobs, there were also some employers that took full advantage of that, they only used Temp. Services to hire which paid crap so I've been there, never hit welfare but probably would have been better off several times.


Sam, this is a first. I agree with you 100%. :shock: :o I am experiencing this right now here in Chattanooga. It is the exact same thing going on with the temp agency's. I won't go into detail, but you are spot on.

Kevin
KLook
 
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: franco b On: Fri May 09, 2014 9:41 pm

tjnamtiw wrote:4 pages based on an article from the Huffington Post linked by a troll. What is wrong with this picture, folks?

I don't think samhill is a troll, just a decent compassionate man who I think is mistaken about the best way to accomplish good government. He does his research and posts a lot with some good arguments. He makes us think about our own position and as such is a real asset to the forum. A lot of the conservative Gods have clay feet too.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: warminmn On: Fri May 09, 2014 10:47 pm

Nope. Sam is no troll.

Temp services suck. You gotta do what you gotta do to live, but they suck. I do see why employers use them to find employees when they are short handed, but they arent much good to work for. Ive been at both ends of that.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: samhill On: Sat May 10, 2014 7:27 am

Franco, I don't know why or even if you feel working in a Steel Mill was honest work, not sitting behind a desk with AC hard & most times hot, cold or dirty but it was certainly not something that I would ever be ashamed of & you can disregard the whole thing if I mistook your reply.
People did & could survive without, many did for years & small businesses would flourish, don't forget Ford got to where he was by realizing you had to both pay people enough to buy a reasonably priced car, no use in pumping out a product without a market. A human can figure a way to survive but no matter what the SC says a Corp. is not human. A CEO & most of his or her support could take months off & the product could still be coming down the line & get shipped, get rid of the workers for months & that Corp. would die. It seems like many forget just how long the higher tax rates have been historically low but try & find American Made, if the middle class dies the economy dies. It all depends on one another, everything is needed including compromise, how many dictatorships have survived & under what conditions?
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: franco b On: Sat May 10, 2014 10:00 am

samhill wrote:Franco, I don't know why or even if you feel working in a Steel Mill was honest work, not sitting behind a desk with AC hard & most times hot, cold or dirty but it was certainly not something that I would ever be ashamed of & you can disregard the whole thing if I mistook your reply.
People did & could survive without, many did for years & small businesses would flourish, don't forget Ford got to where he was by realizing you had to both pay people enough to buy a reasonably priced car, no use in pumping out a product without a market. A human can figure a way to survive but no matter what the SC says a Corp. is not human. A CEO & most of his or her support could take months off & the product could still be coming down the line & get shipped, get rid of the workers for months & that Corp. would die. It seems like many forget just how long the higher tax rates have been historically low but try & find American Made, if the middle class dies the economy dies. It all depends on one another, everything is needed including compromise, how many dictatorships have survived & under what conditions?

I think working in a steel mill was something to be proud of, to be able to endure those conditions.The irony was to regret losing such a lousy job.

Ford raised pay to stop the 300 percent turnover rate of workers he was experiencing. It was costing more to train new workers than the pay raise cost. Too many could not endure being turned into robots on his production line. If it made him a hero, so much the better, but it was a sound business decision to increase production and lower costs.

A company tries to price its product to make the most profit. Price too high and lose sales and price too low and lose profit. somewhere in the middle is usually about right. Taxes work the same way. Take away too much from the private sector and lose the source of wealth. If in addition government then uses that money to meddle in the market to achieve social goals we get the messes in the housing market as well as health care and education, all of which has been made worse at great cost. To accomplish anything government is the most inefficient way ever invented because it is not subject to the same rules as a free market until it screws up so badly change is possible. It wants the wealth of a free market but hates the discipline of that market, so we get fascism where favored sectors such as banks or green companies are no longer subject to market forces. for these companies it is heads I win and tails I still win while the rest of the economy goes in the tank, but the rich get richer still. then the government talks about the inequality which it created.

As for a company needing its workers, of course it does. Apple is doing just fine without Steve jobs but it would not exist along with the jobs created if not for him.

The Supreme Court decision was to put companies on a more equal footing with Unions concerning political contributions.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: samhill On: Sat May 10, 2014 7:29 pm

I guess it's all what somebody expects or wants out of life Franco, I actually enjoyed the big hard jobs in the mill but even more so the men I worked with. After Duquesne Works shut down I must have worked 30 different jobs in 10 years & then got a chance to get into Edgar Thomson Works to get enough time for retirement. The difference between the two was night & day & mostly because of the men, there they wanted to give all the hard high work to contractors & I raised hell & got more criticism there than I do here (I know hard to believe). I told them the day will come that contractors will be doing our work instead of us, before I left we had all become Production Technicians (which meant we worked production jobs & when something broke down we were supposed to fix it or work with contractors to help them. To say the least that didn't work since they got rid of people to make room for us there was no one to takeover our production so we could repair, a catch 22, that's what college bean counters do. I never did mind working & for the most part the more difficult the better so to me it was in no way a lousy job, we got things done in record time with no major injuries.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: franco b On: Sat May 10, 2014 10:51 pm

Valuable post Sam, that goes a long way to understand where you are coming from, and more, thanks to your honesty.

Dirty, hot, hard work with an anvil chorus in the background yet you found satisfaction in the hard jobs and in the camaraderie of the men you worked with. What a pity that more employers do not understand that workers need more than just pay, but also need mental satisfaction in their work which is an emotional need. Treated like ciphers or pawns the business suffers.

I have read that the CEO of Japanese companies sits down in the same lunch room as the workers and they certainly do not make the obscene salaries which many of ours do. Instead of the us against them attitude of the workers of many US companies, the feeling of group effort or one big family is fostered. Even American baseball players on Japanese teams have commented on this.

I wonder what American business schools have to say on this subject. I suspect not very much of value since so little is understood of human behaviour which is a taboo subject unless couched in academic jargon to conceal ignorance. Government tries and has had some success, but it too is just flailing about without adequate knowledge.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: samhill On: Sun May 11, 2014 7:55 am

On that subject Franco, my sister & her husband taught (if that's the right word) ISSO Certification for years & had great success with most like Electric Boat & Bechtel & such but the biggest problem was trying to instill the very thing you talk about, they traveled all through Eurasia & other parts of the world without problems but the U.S. large businesses wanted to keep that divide between hourly & salary & keep a better than thou attitude. Thinking back we had pretty much installed that attitude ourselves at the Duquesne Works in that the different crafts would help one another as well as the non-maintenance, we all worked to make everything easier for all, it's odd that the same Company can change so much from time, that something that was working & change it for the worse.
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: KLook On: Sun May 11, 2014 8:41 am

Valuable post Sam, that goes a long way to understand where you are coming from, and more, thanks to your honesty.


I second this. But the answer is not in more Marxist/Socialist trends in our gov. This is business theory and is brought about by ignorant people having to much influence over "cost reduction" or nowadays, "lean manufacturing".

Kevin
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Sun May 11, 2014 10:53 am

samhill wrote:Lets put it another way, that welfare program isn't supposed to go to illegals by law, if they are getting it someone is breaking the law. The ones that send money back are illegal workers doing jobs that most Americans won't do & doing those jobs for low paying American businesses.
Welfare taken away from the bottom would leave many going hungry & turning to that crime you think everyone on welfare are doing. Take away Corp. Welfare & Corporations would pay more & maybe a CEO or two may have to cut back to just a million or two per year. Even if they didn't pay a cent in tax there would still be millions not being paid in subsidies & if Corp.s are people why shouldn't they have to pay tax on earnings like other people?

I haven't read the entire thread, and being on over the road driver, I don't have the computer time to get into long discussions.

But what I'll say about this talking point is that it is total and complete bullcrap. It has absolutely no basis in fact at all!!!!!!

About 18 years ago, when Social Security started sending out the estimates of benefits if you were to retire based on your income, I was totally shocked to find out that listed under my social security number was income from a job in Wilkes Barre, Pa. The listed income from that job was 41,000 dollars for the year.
I called the Social Security Administration and said..........I've never been to that are before in my life, and it's 300 miles from where I live.
The response from the person on the phone was that an illegal alien was using my social security number for employment, and I should do nothing because the money was being added to my account.
I thought to myself...........now what happens when I go to retire, and this fact comes to light?? I told them to stop the activity from the illegal alien.

But ya ready for the real kicker?????

My actual income at that time was 12,000 dollars a year.

Just what kind of job, do you think that illegal alien was doing, that I would have refused to do..........for that kind of money???????
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Re: Just who are the sheep

PostBy: samhill On: Sun May 11, 2014 3:00 pm

Like with anything SWP there are always exceptions to the rule. I would guess that there just maybe some illegal doctors & engineers along with other professionals, they aren't all from Hispanic or others that are easily distinguished by appearance. It wasn't all that long ago they caught one from Russia in Erie that had been a financial advisor or something along that line for many years. The bulk of the dirty & farm jobs go to them as well as construction & things like carpet installation, landscaping things like that when they can underbid all others.
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