Economics lesson for those who love taxation

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:54 pm

In order to determine which items are essential to life, and which are merely luxury items (and thereby taxable) a new bureaucratic wing of government larger and more expensive than any established before would need to be created, and the lobbyists would have a field day.

Isn't a 200 ft. yacht a necessity of life? Multiple commissions would have to spend zillions of hours (and tax dollars) to answer this question. And there will be millions of other questions just like it.

Of course it could just as easily go the other way also. A house is not a necessity of life if a large cardboard box accomplishes the same task. Steak is not a necessity when worms are available. Shoes can be replaced with rags wrapped around the feet. Electricity can be replaced by candles. Coal, now that's surely a luxury item. Etc... Commissions and studies and legislation upon legislation will have to decide in every case what is essential to life to the extent that it is tax free as a consequence, and what is truly a taxable luxury item...
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:12 pm

Good grief , my simple mind can not grasp all these complications you guys are spewing out,i'm going back to my Keep it Sensibly Simple approach to life & not post on this again. I do not love taxation so no lessons for me to learn here :?
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:17 pm

Good examples Isayre, I don't think the Gov. should have ever gotten into the housing thing & don't really know how or when it started. I do know however that candles in a cardboard box are not a good idea. That's the point I'm getting at that everything has to be well thought out or we will end up with more intrusion from Gov. than what was started out trying to eliminate. Like everything both parties have been in power numerous times & nothing has changed with either for the most part & it's really only brought to life close to election time.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75


Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:19 pm

I think the basic issue is one of equity. Why should the rich, or some fraction of the rich, pay less as a proportion of what they take in? If everybody else is working say, 1 day out of every 5 to pay for public expenses, why should some people be excused from that? Being rich enough to lobby effectively for narrow, self-serving tax loopholes doesn't seem like a good answer. AFAIK even Warren Buffett doesn't favor lower effective income tax rates for the wealthy.

And I'm surprised to see anyone involved in the supply of durable goods favor a big increase in sales taxes. That proposal seems like a sure-fire way to clobber whatever home-grown industry we have left.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:21 pm

Good point Pacowy, the # of pages for tax returns keeps increasing with every special favor bought for by lobbyists, I never looked up early tax laws & returns but I'd be willing to bet it's nothing like now. I always used to do my own until I started up front businesses & even now we get it done & the CPA keeps saying it hasn't changed from last year but Gov. tends to instill a fear since there is no such thing as an honest mistake & one will cost you more money.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: GA cracker On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:31 pm

OK Samhill, then what is the incentive for someone or some couple that take years of education, and going in debt to get to a place where they are making 300K a year after years of commitment to get there and then having someone tell them because they are making very well they need to pay a little more to someone that is not willing to do what they did. BS! yeah i'm telling my story.
Cracker
GA cracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark iii
Coal Size/Type: nut
Other Heating: Central heat and air

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:56 pm

GA cracker wrote:OK Samhill, then what is the incentive for someone or some couple that take years of education, and going in debt to get to a place where they are making 300K a year after years of commitment to get there and then having someone tell them because they are making very well they need to pay a little more to someone that is not willing to do what they did. BS! yeah i'm telling my story.
Cracker


If they pay 20% in tax they still have $240k to spend. If someone who makes $50k pays 20% in tax they have $40k to spend. Even if they only pay 10% in tax, they still only have $45k to spend. It seems like there still is plenty of financial incentive for the $300k people - they gain around $200k/year in spending power whether or not the low income people pay at the same tax rate.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: GA cracker On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:48 pm

Mike your right. I am not going to bitch about paying my fair share however, I resent anyone telling me how I "should redistribute" my money according to their belief.
Cracker
GA cracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark iii
Coal Size/Type: nut
Other Heating: Central heat and air

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:31 pm

samhill wrote:I'll tell you something that happened years ago Flyer, I was talking to a good friend that at that time was close if not a millionaire, first he was bragging about the tax he got out of paying & then went into a rage about what he ended up paying which was way more than me several times over. I said I'll tell you what, you live off of my wages & I'll take yours, pay both our taxes & even give you half back. He looked at me while thinking & said never mind I get where your going & left it at that, never said anything about taxes to me again. But to answer you why not more than 100 mil. if that's a strain for you to live on 900 mil. a year shame on you. As far as the sales tax it wouldn't be fair, you only need a car if you can't get to public trans., even if you buy a new BMW or what ever every year it isn't going to hurt a millionaire but the poor guy buying a clunker is going to struggle. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the poor deserve a BMW nor should the rich buy one for him but he could well afford to pay a bit more for the use of services we all use. If they both were to call for police or a fire who do you think will get the better response?



Wait I am still stuck on you said you have a friend.



Just kidding. :) I am sure there are more of you. Sorry I couldn't resist. :lol:

So you feel that if I make 50k/ year and you make say 250k/yr and I pay 5000 /yr in takes it would be more fair for you to pay 50k/in taxes.
So I will have 45k to spend on my needs and you will have 200k to spend on yours. That type of reasoning is fair to you?
For me I would think it would be more fair for you to only pay 25k/yr in taxes. Why should you pay more % than me? Just because you may have done more school worked longer hrs and had more responsibility. By your method you are being punished for applying yourself more than me. There is a small percentage of people that are just lucky. Should they also be treated differently because they have more.
I am not sure what the magic # is but if we have to pay taxes it should be the same across the board. If you make it in investments or hard work the % is the same. If you win the lottery it is income and treated the same.

I just cannot wrap my head around the envy logic
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:35 pm

Lets look at our system from the other end & say your now in your mid fifties, worked all your life saved what you could but didn't make much & had some bad health. Lost your job & found out your employers weren't investing what they were taking from you for your retirement, how many employers do you think will even look at your resume yet alone hire someone with health problems at your age? Then you get some part time greeter work & now you find some want to lower your pay or amount of hours when even now you have to rely on food stamps to eat, you pray for your old job back but that guy got a golden parachute, invested the funds he stole from you in Ireland & is now asking & getting tax free help to start a new business because he is a job creator & the cap. gains he's made are taxed at a lower rate than you would be even if you got your old job back. Then while your down some want to cut the SS that was taken out of your pay while you did work so you will still have to greet people into your seventies if you live that long without any healthcare it's not likely, & now they want to take 10% of your meager pay & cut your food stamps so they can give your old boss another tax cut.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:45 pm

samhill wrote:Lets look at our system from the other end & say your now in your mid fifties, worked all your life saved what you could but didn't make much & had some bad health. Lost your job & found out your employers weren't investing what they were taking from you for your retirement, how many employers do you think will even look at your resume yet alone hire someone with health problems at your age? Then you get some part time greeter work & now you find some want to lower your pay or amount of hours when even now you have to rely on food stamps to eat, you pray for your old job back but that guy got a golden parachute, invested the funds he stole from you in Ireland & is now asking & getting tax free help to start a new business because he is a job creator & the cap. gains he's made are taxed at a lower rate than you would be even if you got your old job back. Then while your down some want to cut the SS that was taken out of your pay while you did work so you will still have to greet people into your seventies if you live that long without any healthcare it's not likely, & now they want to take 10% of your meager pay & cut your food stamps so they can give your old boss another tax cut.



What does this have to do with a flat tax at the same rate for everyone?
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:52 pm

Flyer, the tax rate on earned income is the same on the scale going up we both pay the same % on what's earned in every tax bracket, the richer guy knows that the next brackets higher he pays a bit more but do you see any saying hell I'll quit working half way thru April so I don't pay a higher tax rate? It's their choice to work the whole year & make/pay more then if high enough they can join others & lobby to get tax breaks but you have no one to care enough to consider a break for you so you pay more to make up for the tax break the rich guy got. Sure he paid the lobbyist that paid the Congress but heck the Congress makes the big bucks as well for working a whole lot less than most people so they don't care about most people. It isn't so much the % as the ability that some get over others to lower the % for them & not all.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:58 pm

To me Samhill was making a case why lower tax rates for people with the lowest incomes might be viewed as equitable.

I think the original issue was more like whether it is equitable to have someone earning $100k/year pay $20k/year in tax, and someone making $250k/year pay $50k/year in tax, but someone making $1 million/year pay $100k/year in tax (or maybe less). I can't think of any good reasons for that.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:14 pm

I'm terrible at this crap but I think we all agree that something has to be done, the problem I see is that our Gov. has the wealthy figuring out what is fair. The more we all talk the more confusing it gets as there are many good points, I ran across this just now trying to find talking points & what I noticed were that even some of these smart guy suggestions start leaning toward some type of breaks for some. I'm now just thinking if it wasn't more fair to begin with & just got more confusing to create a system of tax by smoke & mirrors for the advantage of one over others. Great conversations but I need a break, both from this, tax & hunger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Economics lesson for those who love taxation

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:27 pm

Pacowy wrote:To me Samhill was making a case why lower tax rates for people with the lowest incomes might be viewed as equitable.

I think the original issue was more like whether it is equitable to have someone earning $100k/year pay $20k/year in tax, and someone making $250k/year pay $50k/year in tax, but someone making $1 million/year pay $100k/year in tax (or maybe less). I can't think of any good reasons for that.

Mike



OK so we go with below a certain Income, no tax. But I still cannot see an argument where just because someone makes a lot more money they should have to pay more %. Remember this is a flat tax so it would be the same for investment income and employment income. Most of the real high earners currently pay a lower % than say you and I because they have the legal means to shelter or use questionable deductions. What I am saying is no deductions or shelters. I believe with a flat tax the lower and middle class would pay less dollars. Hell if I had all the answers I would be in a different field. My opinion is I have a hard time understanding why the wealthy should be punished for being wealthy.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer