Snowden, Discuss...

Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:51 am

Extradition treaties are only as good as the countries that recognize them.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nation-j ... en2_06-24/
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:53 am

jpete wrote:

Didn't stop 9/11, didn't stop the Boston bombings, didn't stop Benghazi.


They didn't start doing this until after 9/11, that was the catalyst. Prior to that there was some very strict rules in place about spying on US citizens because of Watergate. This was actually stopped for a very short time because Ashcroft refused to rubber stamp it the one year.

We can certainly point out where the failures were, your Grandkids will learn of the successes. You can never prevent anything from ever happening again no matter what you do. My point is based on the amount of data they were collecting and my rudimentary knowledge of analyzing data it would be crazy to think this didn't prevent attacks. When you have your hands on communication data and who the hell knows what else from numerous sources it isn't going to take to long to put the pieces together.

Frontline on PBS did a 2 part 3 hour show on this a short time ago . The first two hours focused on the government and the third hour was the complicity of major tech giants and communication companies including Google, Yahoo, Facebook, AT&T, Verizon etc. If you haven't seen it I'd urge you to watch it.

There is one thing that has stuck with me that Hayden said and I'll paraphrase. People were complaining after 9/11 about why those attacks weren't stopped. Without this program the possibility of another attack increases and when it happens they will be complaining again. If you want to prevent future attacks we need to make a choice between privacy and safety, as I posted previously I don't think safety should be the goal if it's going to be that invasive.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... he-program
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:59 am

samhill wrote:Everyone's entitled to express their opinion on Snowden (what a great country we live in) but doesn't it strike anyone odd that with all the countries in the world that he could have gone with immunity he choose two Communist countries to run to & now both are shaking their sabers after decades of relative peace? Then again if you tend to side with communism it wouldn't seem odd at all.


It doesn't strike me as odd at all. That perhaps is the only place he could of went.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:22 pm

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote:

Didn't stop 9/11, didn't stop the Boston bombings, didn't stop Benghazi.


They didn't start doing this until after 9/11, that was the catalyst. Prior to that there was some very strict rules in place about spying on US citizens because of Watergate. This was actually stopped for a very short time because Ashcroft refused to rubber stamp it the one year.

We can certainly point out where the failures were, your Grandkids will learn of the successes. You can never prevent anything from ever happening again no matter what you do. My point is based on the amount of data they were collecting and my rudimentary knowledge of analyzing data it would be crazy to think this didn't prevent attacks. When you have your hands on communication data and who the hell knows what else from numerous sources it isn't going to take to long to put the pieces together.

Frontline on PBS did a 2 part 3 hour show on this a short time ago . The first two hours focused on the government and the third hour was the complicity of major tech giants and communication companies including Google, Yahoo, Facebook, AT&T, Verizon etc. If you haven't seen it I'd urge you to watch it.

There is one thing that has stuck with me that Hayden said and I'll paraphrase. People were complaining after 9/11 about why those attacks weren't stopped. Without this program the possibility of another attack increases and when it happens they will be complaining again. If you want to prevent future attacks we need to make a choice between privacy and safety, as I posted previously I don't think safety should be the goal if it's going to be that invasive.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... he-program


They were recording everything before hand. The Carnivore program was up and running under Clinton.

So called "open source intelligence" (OSINT) has been around for years before that.

Even Snowden says they had all the information they needed to stop the attack. But when you collect EVERYTHING, you aren't going to see ANYTHING.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:23 pm

Richard S. wrote:
samhill wrote:Everyone's entitled to express their opinion on Snowden (what a great country we live in) but doesn't it strike anyone odd that with all the countries in the world that he could have gone with immunity he choose two Communist countries to run to & now both are shaking their sabers after decades of relative peace? Then again if you tend to side with communism it wouldn't seem odd at all.


It doesn't strike me as odd at all. That perhaps is the only place he could of went.


He didn't "go" to Russia. The State Department cancelled his visa which left him stranded in Russia. He was planning on going to South America.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:42 pm

He went from China to Russia, what do you mean he didn't go to Russia he wasn't taken there & he didn't just materialize there he flew there in a jet, then he got stuck there. Kind hearted Putin allowed him to stay but naturally he didn't allow either country to see what he had. :roll:
Many South American countries & Cuba most likely were available for him to get to, he wasn't a known spy, fugitive, traitor or whatever you want to call him until after the fact. It's been many years but very few people used to know complete pictures you worked on a part & knew nothing of other parts unless you had a need to know or in his case had help IMO, they are probably more interested to know who helped since what's done is done.
Last edited by samhill on Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:48 pm

jpete wrote:But when you collect EVERYTHING, you aren't going to see ANYTHING.


That's just it Jpete, you can with enough computing power. You can take all that information, filter out what you don't want and start connecting the dots with what is left.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:48 pm

jpete wrote: He was planning on going to South America.


Venezuela was it? Same thing.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:27 pm

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote:But when you collect EVERYTHING, you aren't going to see ANYTHING.


That's just it Jpete, you can with enough computing power. You can take all that information, filter out what you don't want and start connecting the dots with what is left.


Eventually.

Is it fast enough to stop an attack? They didn't stop Boston even though they had prior warning from the Russians.

And is it worth living in East Germany for the illusion of safety?
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:32 pm

Inconveniencing and interfering with the American citizens should not be part of the program. They need to profile more and worry less about the feelings of a foreigner. They were not Americans flying those jets into buildings. They were not Americans that did the Boston bombing. The attempted shoe bomber was not American. So the one thing most attacks have in common is they were not Americans. So how about we pay more attention to who we let in to this country.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:31 am

Flyer5 wrote:Inconveniencing and interfering with the American citizens should not be part of the program.


There is no limits on what data they can collect from foreigners but the issue becomes is when those foreigners are communicating with US citizens.

These organizations like Al Qaeda have to communicate, that's how Osama got busted except in that case they physically followed the guy he was using to communicate to outside world with.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:36 am

jpete wrote:
Is it fast enough to stop an attack? They didn't stop Boston even though they had prior warning from the Russians.


Again you cannot expect to stop everything from ever happening. It's very easy to point out the failures because they are very evident.

And is it worth living in East Germany for the illusion of safety?


It's a tool, use it or don't. As I've said I don't think the means justify the ends. If the government were only going to use it for counter terrorism and blindly look the other way for other things then I'd agree with it but that's not going to happen.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:03 pm

Richard S. wrote:Again you cannot expect to stop everything from ever happening. It's very easy to point out the failures because they are very evident.


But they haven't stopped ANYTHING. Not one TSA agent ever stopped a terrorist from getting on a plane. The administration likes to talk about all the things they stopped but where are the facts? What evidence can they provide to back up the claim? Where is one person being hauled in from of a judge? Or do they simply black hole them in Syria and Egypt?

It's a tool, use it or don't. As I've said I don't think the means justify the ends. If the government were only going to use it for counter terrorism and blindly look the other way for other things then I'd agree with it but that's not going to happen.


You can't be half pregnant on the 4A. Either we have a right to be free of illegal searches, or we don't. And since they can't produce a warrant naming a specific person and thing they are searching for, then ALL the stuff vacuumed up is unconstitutional. Every single person involved should be charged with at the very least perjury for violating their oaths.
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: grumpy On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:41 pm

These organizations like Al Qaeda have to communicate, that's how Osama got busted except in that case they physically followed the guy he was using to communicate to outside world with.


Busted, busted for what?
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:32 pm

He allegedly got a cap busted in his azz. :)

But he got ratted out by someone living in the area, not any type of government information sucking computer.

If that was the case, he wouldn't have been living there for most of a decade before they found him.
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