Snowden, Discuss...

Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: grumpy On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:46 pm

They din't find crap, he died in December 2001, it was reported by all the MSM here in the US and elsewhere around the world between 2001 and 2005. Up until a few years ago you could still find the reports from cnn, abc, cbs ect, the only one that remains today is the fox news story,, hum...

From 2001
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/12/26 ... eady-dead/

Even the FBI in Nov 2001and notice he is not wanted for 9/11
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden


There is no way he lived another 10 years.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/n ... .terrorism

http://www.legitgov.org/News-Bin-Ladens ... ember-2001
grumpy
 

Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:05 am

jpete wrote:
But they haven't stopped ANYTHING.


That's like saying stops signs haven't prevented accidents because we don't know if anyone stopped. One of the important parts of the intelligence world is keeping that information secret. As I said previously your kids or Grandkids might find out how successful this was.

Where is one person being hauled in from of a judge?


I guess they could scrape up the pieces after a drone attack. :lol:
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:09 am

grumpy wrote:
Busted, busted for what?


Does found sound better? Osama had a single courier that he used to communicate with the outside world. All his communications were hand delivered, once they found the courier it led them to Osama.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:15 am

jpete wrote:
But he got ratted out by someone living in the area,


My understanding is the first information about the courier surfaced under the Bush administration from a Gitmo detainee but it took years to find the guys real name and location. They were finally able to identify him through his cell phone usage in conversation with someone else. From that point it was just matter of following him. Of course that story may be wrong. Your Grandkids will get the full story.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:42 am

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote:
But he got ratted out by someone living in the area,


My understanding is the first information about the courier surfaced under the Bush administration from a Gitmo detainee but it took years to find the guys real name and location. They were finally able to identify him through his cell phone usage in conversation with someone else. From that point it was just matter of following him. Of course that story may be wrong. Your Grandkids will get the full story.


Ha ha , CNN had no trouble finding him and doing an interview in 1997....

and they got him gosh darn it, yup, burried at sea, it's true because the tee vee said so....
Black_And_Blue
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:50 am

Black_And_Blue wrote:
Ha ha , CNN had no trouble finding him and doing an interview in 1997....

and they got him gosh darn it, yup, burried at sea, it's true because the tee vee said so....


There is big difference between 1997 and a few years ago. There was lot of missed opportunities going back to the Clinton admin.

As far as whether he was actually killed, if not he was certainly captured. I don't think there is any conspiracy here but an alive Bin Laden pronounced dead would certainly be the best scenario for intelligence community.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:12 pm

I'm not buying the grandkids argument. I suppose if we just tore up the Constitution, government would make us perfectly safe.
jpete
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:05 pm

jpete wrote:I'm not buying the grandkids argument.


Success or failure those things don't come out for decades.


I suppose if we just tore up the Constitution, government would make us perfectly safe.


Hence the reason I don't support it. The costs outweigh the benefits.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:35 pm

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote:I'm not buying the grandkids argument.


Success or failure those things don't come out for decades.


It's an illogical argument. If no one ever attacks us, the government can claim they made us safe even though no attempt was made.

And if an attempt is successful, like Boston, then they say we need to restrict the people more.

It all ends in totalitarianism.
jpete
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:04 am

jpete wrote:
It's an illogical argument. If no one ever attacks us, the government can claim they made us safe even though no attempt was made.


Do you know how many accidents are prevented by people stopping for stop signs?

How many thefts are prevented by locks?

We don't know the answer to either but you can guarantee accidents and thefts were prevented. Specifically about my comment whether there has been one terrorist plot stopped or hundreds that information is not going to be public for decades.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:36 am

Richard S. wrote:We don't know the answer to either but you can guarantee accidents and thefts were prevented.


We have no way of saying how many or if anything would have happened if the situation were different.

Do you mean to tell me that you have so little regard for your own safety that in the absence of a red octagonal piece of sheet aluminum, you'd plow right through an intersection without first making sure it was safe to do so?

I say, tear down all the traffic control devices and watch spontaneous order.

I know I'd stop at every intersection. :)
jpete
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:26 am

Lack of your getting to see "evidence" of things being prevented is not "proof" that they were never prevented.

As Richard is saying, there's a lot the average citizen never gets to hear about. Especially in the world of intelligence gathering. Having had several security clearances doing Government work, plus classes in security as a military radio operator, there are very good reasons for not handing out info to Joe Public to let him know what a great job is being done on his behalf.

One of the big things about intelligence gathering and security is don't blab/brag about what's been done, because it not only lets Joe Public know, it educates those trying to do us harm, by seeing where, what, and when their plan worked, or failed, so they can refine future plans.

And most of the time, bad guys don't get the whole picture, before or after the fact. They put a puzzle together by getting seemingly unimportant bits of info, acquired from many sources. Just like making a mosaic, a lot of little pieces that seem to mean nothing, when put together, make up a picture.

Can you imagine how WWII would have turned out if the White House had blabbed, or leaked, that the US and the Brits had broken the Japanese and German codes ?

So, don't get your nickers in a twist if your kept in the dark about any attacks being prevented. Just remember, they want the bad guys kept in the dark as much as possible too.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:58 am

jpete wrote:
Richard S. wrote:We don't know the answer to either but you can guarantee accidents and thefts were prevented.


We have no way of saying how many or if anything would have happened if the situation were different.

Do you mean to tell me that you have so little regard for your own safety that in the absence of a red octagonal piece of sheet aluminum, you'd plow right through an intersection without first making sure it was safe to do so?

I say, tear down all the traffic control devices and watch spontaneous order.

I know I'd stop at every intersection. :)



Just drive around the dirt back roads where I live. Lots of intersections without signs. I have never seen an accident near them.
Flyer5
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:25 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Lack of your getting to see "evidence" of things being prevented is not "proof" that they were never prevented.

As Richard is saying, there's a lot the average citizen never gets to hear about. Especially in the world of intelligence gathering. Having had several security clearances doing Government work, plus classes in security as a military radio operator, there are very good reasons for not handing out info to Joe Public to let him know what a great job is being done on his behalf.

One of the big things about intelligence gathering and security is don't blab/brag about what's been done, because it not only lets Joe Public know, it educates those trying to do us harm, by seeing where, what, and when their plan worked, or failed, so they can refine future plans.

And most of the time, bad guys don't get the whole picture, before or after the fact. They put a puzzle together by getting seemingly unimportant bits of info, acquired from many sources. Just like making a mosaic, a lot of little pieces that seem to mean nothing, when put together, make up a picture.

Can you imagine how WWII would have turned out if the White House had blabbed, or leaked, that the US and the Brits had broken the Japanese and German codes ?

So, don't get your nickers in a twist if your kept in the dark about any attacks being prevented. Just remember, they want the bad guys kept in the dark as much as possible too.

Paul


So anything and everything goes so long as we pretend it's making us safe? No thanks. I'd rather take my chances.
jpete
 
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Re: Snowden, Discuss...

PostBy: KLook On: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Read this all with interest. I am with Jpete. You can do surveillance, but it must be done with privacy and oversight in mind. And I don't think anyone has been stopped yet. And the TSA is a joke.

Kevin
KLook
 
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