The Definitive Cylinder Stove Barrel Height Info Thread.

 
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blrman07
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Post by blrman07 » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 5:20 am

franco b wrote: A stove with better air handling and fire pot design will produce more net BTU regardless of grate to heat exchange ratio than one lacking those features.
This thread started when someone asked a question about extending the barrel on their stove to get more heat radiating surface. Regardless of the fire pot design, type of grate, manufacturer, or fuel type, once you get outside the 27-1 ratio your effective radiation of heat will suffer.

When that ratio was discovered it was during the golden age of stoves starting in the late 1800's to early 1900's. Those designs that were closest to the 27-1 ratio survived. Those that didn't ended up as scrap and melted down.

This is a very simple concept. Did you read the engineering reports cited in this thread?

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 11:46 am

blrman07 wrote:
franco b wrote: A stove with better air handling and fire pot design will produce more net BTU regardless of grate to heat exchange ratio than one lacking those features.
This thread started when someone asked a question about extending the barrel on their stove to get more heat radiating surface. Regardless of the fire pot design, type of grate, manufacturer, or fuel type, once you get outside the 27-1 ratio your effective radiation of heat will suffer.

When that ratio was discovered it was during the golden age of stoves starting in the late 1800's to early 1900's. Those designs that were closest to the 27-1 ratio survived. Those that didn't ended up as scrap and melted down.

This is a very simple concept. Did you read the engineering reports cited in this thread?
The ratio of 27 to 1 is a rough guide, a rule but not a golden one since there are other factors than can have a broad influence on it. Paul, in this post explored that.
The Definitive Cylinder Stove Barrel Height Info Thread.

I have no problem with the 27 to 1 ratio but do have a problem with its being emphasized to the exclusion of other equally important things such as the fire where it all begins. To give that force I made a statement (which you quoted) in the form of a rule which I believe to be a golden one. One as true as the sun rising every day. That raised hackles so the fault is mine for not making things clear enough about something you understand as well as I and maybe better.

So to re-state the rule; in a stove whose fire pot and air handling parts provide for more even air distribution and retention of heat within the pot, less combustion air will be needed and less CO gas will be generated and more initial gasses will be burnt. Because less air is needed there is less excess air carrying heat up the flue. Volume and velocity being lower any heat exchange is more effective than in a stove not having these efficient burning attributes.

Heat exchange is also not just a question of area. How closely the flue gas passes the area has a major effect. In efficient exchange the gas is broken up to pass closely to the exchange area. A stove with more efficiently designed heat exchange might very well have a lower stack temp. than one with a larger area. Measuring the center temp. of a smoke pipe as opposed to the side illustrates this very well.

Lastly I did read one report and even provided a link to it. I don't think rebuke was deserved and I think I have shown that things are not as simple as they seem at first glance.

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 1:48 pm

There is a lot to be had with combustion efficiency but there are practical limits as well. CO while present does not really help anything. CO2 was the original gas measured as easily done chemically. Currently they measure O2 content instead looking for excess air. Personally I am not in favor of that method as I can picture high CO low CO2 and low O2 giving a false number. A high CO2 and low O2 would indicate very good combustion as all oxygen used and little excess. I see secondary air as a blessing and a curse. A blessing when volatiles to burn off and a curse when they are gone. It makes me think a stove for anthracite with fixed secondary is a bad plan as sometimes not enough and sometimes too much. They might work out as a good average that is never correct at any one moment.

I know this a heat area exchange question to start but just following where it is leading as well.

 
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Post by blrman07 » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 2:35 pm

You appear to have missed the point of the thread. It was talking about ratio's that survived the test of time. If you are saying that the ratio being described doesn't mean anything and everything boils down to firepot design you are entitled to your opinion, just like everybody else.


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 3:24 pm

Dave,

It's simple. With stoves, as with people, having too big a can is not good when ya need energy ! :D

Paul

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Dave,

It's simple. With stoves, as with people, having too big a can is not good when ya need energy ! :D

Paul
Paul
Agree buttalosis is dangerous LOL. All I am suggesting is the chemistry of combustion not all that tidy and neat.
Dave

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 4:41 pm

blrman07 wrote:You appear to have missed the point of the thread. It was talking about ratio's that survived the test of time. If you are saying that the ratio being described doesn't mean anything and everything boils down to firepot design you are entitled to your opinion, just like everybody else.
Not at all what I meant or said. In an integrated system each part relates to what has gone before, and except for Paul there has been no consideration of firing rate.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 4:57 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Dave,

It's simple. With stoves, as with people, having too big a can is not good when ya need energy ! :D

Paul
Paul
Agree buttalosis is dangerous LOL. All I am suggesting is the chemistry of combustion not all that tidy and neat.
Dave
Can't help ya there. Back in my school days I was only interested in chemistry with the girls. :roll:

However, William posted a very good account of the chemical what & when of a coal fire. He reposted it within the past month, or so. Have you seen it ?

Paul


 
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Post by scalabro » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 6:53 pm

I have a feeling that once my Stewart with its 36 inch barrel is finished it will either confirm or disprove some old school design elements.

It will have less coal capacity than a Crawford 40 yet more barrel surface area while using the same basic fire pot & gas path design. Except, the Stewart's pot will be insulated more than the Crawford due to the use of a thermal barrier coating on the cast (now steel) sections of the fire pot, in addition to the refractory liner.

Im hoping to be able to regularly achieve at least 4/1 barrel to outlet ratio at high output while being able to really idle down low in the shoulder months.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 7:22 pm

For what it's worth,.....

I'm not sure what the limits of the ratio are, but I've stood next to this 7 foot tall, 24 inch firepot Beckwith.

As you can see in the pictures the primary and secondary dampers were closed. It was burning wood and just idling along on the air leaks around the doors. And that's pretty much the damper settings used though the winter. At that, the heat output was painful if standing within a few feet.

That stove is the only heat an entire house with very tall ceilings, open floor plan and walls of windows starting just to the right of that stove. It was very comfortable in shirt sleeves throughout the house when we were there. It was in the hills of western Massachusetts, in winter, on a very cold day.

Paul

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scalabro
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Post by scalabro » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 7:26 pm

I love looking at that stove every time you post pics of it Paul, thanks! :)

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Nov. 19, 2015 7:34 pm

scalabro wrote:I love looking at that stove every time you post pics of it Paul, thanks! :)
Scott, your welcome.

If yours cranks out heat anywhere near what this beast does, the neighbors will think you've gone crazy because of having all your windows open in winter. ;)

Paul

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