Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:55 pm

No intent to lie on the forum. I'm only looking at the consequences that will come down the road a bit due to this decision. The door is open and the SCOTUS has made a decision that is clearly open to broad and flexible interpretation. Give it time. I'm fairly certain that the lower courts will have a field day over this one, interpreting it at will.

What's wrong with buying a gun for a friend?
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:19 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:There's details about this case that folks are missing.

You can still legally buy guns as "presents" for family members.

You can still buy a gun for yourself, and later, if you don't like it, legally sell it to another person through FFL's.

What you CAN'T do is accept money from someone else and then go buy a gun for them and declare on the form that the gun is for you. That's how this guy broke the law and got nailed for it. He lied about who the gun was being purchased for, even though he and the end gun owner both passed a back ground test and the transfer was done through FFL's.

And that's why the SC upheld the conviction. It was a true straw purchase - he lied about who he was buying the gun for.

Don't lie on the form. Buy the gun as a gift, or get paid after selling the gun to a second party through an FFL and you'll be ok.

Paul


So, from what I gathered, the guy who was just convicted lacked any common sense.
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:53 pm

Some clarity can be found here:

http://bearingarms.com/split-supreme-co ... ts-felons/

Interesting that the left wing of the SCOTUS carried the day here (with Kagan writing for the majority) and the anti-gun crowd is calling this a victory for President Obama.
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:11 pm

Or don't ever sell guns. Be greedy keep em all to yourself. :)
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:42 pm

Right?

Selling guns is like selling tools. Neither should ever be done!
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: plumb-r On: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:45 am

The only good reason to sell is to make room for a better one. Or just buy a bigger safe and keep them all! :D
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:40 am

I'm On Fire wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:There's details about this case that folks are missing.

You can still legally buy guns as "presents" for family members.

You can still buy a gun for yourself, and later, if you don't like it, legally sell it to another person through FFL's.

What you CAN'T do is accept money from someone else and then go buy a gun for them and declare on the form that the gun is for you. That's how this guy broke the law and got nailed for it. He lied about who the gun was being purchased for, even though he and the end gun owner both passed a back ground test and the transfer was done through FFL's.

And that's why the SC upheld the conviction. It was a true straw purchase - he lied about who he was buying the gun for.

Don't lie on the form. Buy the gun as a gift, or get paid after selling the gun to a second party through an FFL and you'll be ok.

Paul


So, from what I gathered, the guy who was just convicted lacked any common sense.


I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle on this one. It's being played up more by the gun grabbers as a win and panic by the gun supporters who don't understand.

The guy tried to get around the pre existing law. The spirit of the law is to keep guns away from those who can't legally have them. The ruling was more about the letter of the law. A straw purchase has always been against the law regardless of who is involved. He got caught committing a felony by lying on the form and tried to get off by using the excuse that both gun buyers could pass a back ground check and legally own a gun, plus the exchange was being done legally through FFL's,. However, that only met part of the requirements.

On the form, it clearly asks if your buying the gun for yourself (as the end user).

And it also clearly says that lying on the form is a felony right near where you have to sign the form. The guys a cop, he knows better.

Plain and simple - if he bought the gun before he got money from the other guy, and compounded the error by lying about he being the gun end owner, he'd be ok and this never would have come up. It would have been handled just like a regular gun sale from a gun owner to a buyer.

If the gun grabbers could have twisted that part to stop gun purchases, or preventing the sale of a gun by the gun owner, or a gun owner gifting it to family, I think they would have by now.

Paul
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:36 am

For those who are worried about giving a gun as a present, this is from the ATF form 4473-1 instructions. You can download a copy at the ATF website here, http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download ... 4473-1.pdf

The form question that is in questions is 11A. The instructions that clarify 11A can be found on page 4 of the form.

You will note, that a little more than half way down that 11A instruction paragraph, it explains that buying a firearm to give as a gift is still ok.

Paul
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:34 am

Am I the only one who read 11a and then read the description for 11a and am still asking, "The *censored* did I just read?" I mean yeah, I get it. If I'm buying a gun for myself then I answer yes. But if I am buying a gun for my friend how the hell do I answer? One instance it says you answer no then in another sentence it says to answer yes. "If you are buying a gun on Tuesday for yourself you have to answer "YES" but if it's Wednesday and it's a gun for your friend you can only answer "YES" on the second Friday of every month with the year ending in a 2. Otherwise it has to be "NO" on Thursday as long as it isn't the 4th day in any year ending in 9. Divided by the square root of apple pie minus bananas and a monkey. You can then only buy guns on a Sunday or any day that ends in a Y provided it's not cold or raining that day but it's not unbearably hot and it's not on any particular month. IF you live on Mars then you can buy a gun any day of the week for your friends but you can only buy a gun for yourself when the sun is facing the northernmost hemisphere and it's raining. Otherwise you need to answer, "No/Yes" because your not entirely sure what you're supposed to do.

Sorry, but why are all of the laws written so damned cryptically? I'm laying it out right here....I will NEVER buy a firearm for anyone EVER. I do not care if I'm allowed to as a gift. The law is too confusing to me and I will only purchase firearms for myself. If you're my friend, or relative and you want a gun and have your own permit or license to do so then GO BUY IT YOURSELF. I'll buy you a card wishing you a happy birthday and that I was thinking about you when you went to buy your own birthday present at the gun show.
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: lsayre On: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:05 pm

I'm On Fire wrote:Sorry, but why are all of the laws written so damned cryptically?


That's the way it is with subjective law. It must be cryptic so depending upon which lower court Federal Judge hears your case (after you are arrested) it will be up to this Judge to tell us what the law says in his/her opinion (I.E., it is subject to broad Judicial interpretation). This is all as I have stated earlier in this thread when I said that the lower courts will have a field day over this, and what you believe the law says will not be what it says after they get done interpreting it.
Last edited by lsayre on Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:05 pm

I'm On Fire wrote:Am I the only one who read 11a and then read the description for 11a and am still asking, "The *censored* did I just read?" I mean yeah, I get it. If I'm buying a gun for myself then I answer yes. But if I am buying a gun for my friend how the hell do I answer? One instance it says you answer no then in another sentence it says to answer yes. "If you are buying a gun on Tuesday for yourself you have to answer "YES" but if it's Wednesday and it's a gun for your friend you can only answer "YES" on the second Friday of every month with the year ending in a 2. Otherwise it has to be "NO" on Thursday as long as it isn't the 4th day in any year ending in 9. Divided by the square root of apple pie minus bananas and a monkey. You can then only buy guns on a Sunday or any day that ends in a Y provided it's not cold or raining that day but it's not unbearably hot and it's not on any particular month. IF you live on Mars then you can buy a gun any day of the week for your friends but you can only buy a gun for yourself when the sun is facing the northernmost hemisphere and it's raining. Otherwise you need to answer, "No/Yes" because your not entirely sure what you're supposed to do.

Sorry, but why are all of the laws written so damned cryptically?
I'm laying it out right here....I will NEVER buy a firearm for anyone EVER. I do not care if I'm allowed to as a gift. The law is too confusing to me and I will only purchase firearms for myself. If you're my friend, or relative and you want a gun and have your own permit or license to do so then GO BUY IT YOURSELF. I'll buy you a card wishing you a happy birthday and that I was thinking about you when you went to buy your own birthday present at the gun show.


Job security for lawyers.
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Re: Executive Order to regulate and control guns is nigh at hand

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:11 pm

From the form 4473 - instructions page 4, question 11.a. paragraph.

" ............. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer, "YES" to question 11.a. ......... "

What's not to understand ?

Mr. Brown buys the gun to give as a present to Mr. Black (or, parent to kid, etc.). So the ATF says Mr. Brown is the legal gun buyer in that instance (gifting a firearm) and can legally answer "yes" on the form. Being able to answer "YES" to 11.a. when buying a gun as a gift means that it's perfectly legal to gift a firearm.

Having to answer "NO" to 11.a would block the sale, or transfer.


More simply put. As long as all parties are eligible to own a firearm,...
1. You can buy a gun for yourself.
2. You can buy a gun as a gift to give to someone else (if over the age limit).
3. You can buy a gun for yourself and then later sell it.

As long as you are buying with your money, your ok.

What you can't do is buy a firearm for someone else using THEIR money. That's always been considered to be a straw purchase.

Make sense now ?

I've bought long guns for my kids to learn with and use and when they reached age 16, I turned over full ownership to them. All perfectly legal.

Paul
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