Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: wsherrick On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:23 am

The whole point of the Reformation and the following Enlightenment was to advance the cause of individual autonomy versus the various forms of tribalism that has infested man for most of his history.
The notion that the tribe trumps the individual takes us back to the stone age. You can see the result of that today. We are reverting to the earlier order which makes the world we now have an impossibility.
A group of like minded individuals united by a set of ideals is not the tribe. It's volitional, i.e. the choice of the individual as sovereign to align himself with a group. Not to have the group define him.
The second idea is vastly different than the first and all of the past 600 years in the western world is founded upon a realization of that fact.
wsherrick
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:54 am

jpete wrote:If we all followed natural law, government would be unnecessary.

That's a big IF. And just what IS this "natural law"? If it Is what my cat does with a mouse, I'm not sure I want more of it in humans.

jpete wrote:Maybe you think men need a boot on their neck to control them. I however, do not.

I’ve known a few who need the boot, and I think you have, too. Some are in the SuperMax. Some have yet to be apprehended – visit Wall Street for a viewing.
rberq
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:55 am

rberq wrote:
jpete wrote:If we all followed natural law, government would be unnecessary.

That's a big IF. And just what IS this "natural law"? If it Is what my cat does with a mouse, I'm not sure I want more of it in humans.

jpete wrote:Maybe you think men need a boot on their neck to control them. I however, do not.

I’ve known a few who need the boot, and I think you have, too. Some are in the SuperMax. Some have yet to be apprehended – visit Wall Street for a viewing.


Natural Law
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Natural_law

Understandable that few know of it in this day and age. Maybe you heard of it by another name, "morality". ;)

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:24 am

Naturally natural law would require that everybody follows it & just as naturally human nature is something that would never allow it, just as The Ten Commandments didn't have much success. As long as you have humans involved you need human made laws & some form of enforcement, we can't even get that part right.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:49 am

Some fantastic reading on the various theories of law and rights can be found here:

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/iss ... ry-rights/

Some additional searching that I did implied that natural law supports only rights that are "positive" in nature (For example, I have the right to life, liberty, and property), as opposed to laws that are "negative" in nature (you can't do this, that, or the other).

It appears that the formalized concept of natural rights goes back at least to Aristotle. The Romans learned of it and adopted it from the Greeks. Much of the thinking of the Founders is based upon natural law and natural rights. The 'Declaration Of Independence' is clearly based on natural law. "We hold these truths to be self evident....".
lsayre
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:37 am

wsherrick wrote:The notion that the tribe trumps the individual takes us back to the stone age. You can see the result of that today. We are reverting to the earlier order which makes the world we now have an impossibility.

We are not reverting back, we never left. The tribe has just gotten larger with more sub groups. As you point out rightly the problems brought in with the new stone age have not been solved or for the most part even recognized.
franco b
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:00 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Natural Law
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Natural_law
Understandable that few know of it in this day and age. Maybe you heard of it by another name, "morality". ;)

Human morality? As in, "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so?"
Natural law or morality is fine if everybody lives by it. But when some don't, then we need -- damn ! -- government. :o
rberq
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:07 pm

samhill wrote:Naturally natural law would require that everybody follows it & just as naturally human nature is something that would never allow it, just as The Ten Commandments didn't have much success. As long as you have humans involved you need human made laws & some form of enforcement, we can't even get that part right.


If we can't get the ONLY legitimate reason for government right, how do you expect them to get social equality, border protection and health insurance correct?

If what we have is the best we can do then we will share the same fate as every empire in the dust bin of history.
jpete
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:10 pm

rberq wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Natural Law
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Natural_law
Understandable that few know of it in this day and age. Maybe you heard of it by another name, "morality". ;)

Human morality? As in, "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so?"
Natural law or morality is fine if everybody lives by it. But when some don't, then we need -- damn ! -- government. :o


Don't know where you got that quote but regardless of my personal opinion, rape, murder and theft are all"bad". Not because I think so, but because they are against natural law.
jpete
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:27 pm

Government is a business. They make money by making laws. They made laws to enforce morality. Now they are in the business of making laws for ideologies and beliefs. Why because we let them. They continue to try to make laws so they have total control and power. They are limited by how quickly they can take that power. Try to rule too fast and there is retaliation. Do it at the right pace and they will get away with it and have total control . The super rich may be the ones trying to gain total power. Soros and others. The rich are just along for the ride grabbing what they can. The middle class are the ones getting the shaft and supporting it all. The middle class are also the ones I blame for allowing it. A lot of middle class vote with blinders or don't vote at all. The poor are voting for survival in a lot of cases. A lot of the poor take advantage of the selflessness of the middle and upper class through the government buying their votes. We allow the government to use our money to buy the votes of the poor and less to do.

So basically we are screwed to simplify what I just wrote.
Flyer5
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:28 pm

rberq wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Natural Law
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Natural_law
Understandable that few know of it in this day and age. Maybe you heard of it by another name, "morality". ;)

Human morality? As in, "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so?"
Natural law or morality is fine if everybody lives by it. But when some don't, then we need -- damn ! -- government. :o


No, I meant morality - not the "morality du jour" commonly seen today.

As to Government doing the job, we have more Government and laws then at any point in human history. How's that working out for ya ? If Government is the solution, don't you think they would have solved it by now ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:41 pm

Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law.

Ayn Rand

If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

Any alleged “right” of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.

No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as “the right to enslave.”
Ayn Rand

Taking the two together, just as for people, society in whatever form it may take (government, tribe, corporations, organizations, the UN, gangs, etc...) has no right to violate individual rights.
lsayre
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:42 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:As to Government doing the job, we have more Government and laws then at any point in human history. How's that working out for ya ? If Government is the solution, don't you think they would have solved it by now ?

I didn't say THIS government at THIS time has everything right. Far from it. But propose to me a realistic solution that involves NO government -- voluntary observance of "natural law" does not cut it.
rberq
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:46 pm

As opposed to the Robber Barons of old I would say that todays 'Crony Capitalists' (super rich or otherwise) are fundamentally evil. Those businesses who use the government to gain an advantage or a handout or a favor or a subsidy or a punishment directed upon their competition (etc...) are evil.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: wsherrick On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:53 pm

lsayre wrote:
Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law.

Ayn Rand

If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

Any alleged “right” of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.

No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as “the right to enslave.”
Ayn Rand

Taking the two together, just as for people, society in whatever form it may take (government, tribe, corporations, organizations, the UN, gangs, etc...) has no right to violate individual rights.


I couldn't agree more with these statements. The foundational idea that an individual is sovereign and as so has rights separate from any other, also; he has no more rights than any other sovereign individual. The collective (tribe) does not have any claim on those rights. To understand this is basic. We as individuals have to right and responsibility to protect what is individually ours, even if it means using deadly force. We voluntarily forfeit that direct right to a Government to defend those rights by proxy to alleviate (in theory) the need to actively be our own policemen. That in no way removes the primary right to defend your other natural rights from violation.
wsherrick
 
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