Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:59 pm

rberq wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:As to Government doing the job, we have more Government and laws then at any point in human history. How's that working out for ya ? If Government is the solution, don't you think they would have solved it by now ?

I didn't say THIS government at THIS time has everything right. Far from it. But propose to me a realistic solution that involves NO government -- voluntary observance of "natural law" does not cut it.



And, I never said no Government.

So, my answer is, I'll settle for,.... if Government can't work well, then at least have less of it.

And we wouldn't need to worry about natural law, if we had a leader and his appointees that followed the laws and constitution they were ALL sworn to uphold.

Yeah, I know, that's asking too much.

Paul
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:07 pm

jpete wrote:Don't know where you got that quote ...

It was from my pal Willie:
“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
― William Shakespeare, Hamlet

Here's another from Plato's friend Thrasymachus: "Justice is the interest of the stronger."
That's more or less where we are now; and certainly where we would be if we had no government at all.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:43 pm

jpete wrote:Don't know where you got that quote but regardless of my personal opinion, rape, murder and theft are all"bad". Not because I think so, but because they are against natural law.

Those deeds justified by the morality of retribution were committed by Russian soldiers after the defeat of Germany. What is moral in one culture or time may not be in another, though the origin in nature may be identical. It is the fear of retribution that largely keeps the peace today between nations and often between individuals and in communities.

The orthodox follower of Islam believes that sharia law is more moral because it protects the innocent to a greater extent, while we feel that it is barbaric, but underneath it all is still that old natural law of retribution. That it is natural law I think is proven by the knee jerk reaction of almost all species. The same aspect of morality can be expressed in many ways which makes moral justification difficult and claiming it as part of natural law more so.
franco b
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: scalabro On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:12 pm

The foundational idea that an individual is sovereign and as so has rights separate from any other, also; he has no more rights than any other sovereign individual. The collective (tribe) does not have any claim on those rights. To understand this is basic. We as individuals have to right and responsibility to protect what is individually ours, even if it means using deadly force. We voluntarily forfeit that direct right to a Government to defend those rights by proxy to alleviate (in theory) the need to actively be our own policemen. That in no way removes the primary right to defend your other natural rights from violation.

Kudos William.

But.....

"Freemen" or people who hold these beliefs, are considered domestic terrorists by the FBI.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:41 pm

franco b wrote:Those deeds justified by the morality of retribution were committed by Russian soldiers after the defeat of Germany. What is moral in one culture or time may not be in another, though the origin in nature may be identical. It is the fear of retribution that largely keeps the peace today between nations and often between individuals and in communities.

The orthodox follower of Islam believes that sharia law is more moral because it protects the innocent to a greater extent, while we feel that it is barbaric, but underneath it all is still that old natural law of retribution. That it is natural law I think is proven by the knee jerk reaction of almost all species. The same aspect of morality can be expressed in many ways which makes moral justification difficult and claiming it as part of natural law more so.


But there is no "universality" to them. Those are only examples of unique circumstances. The Russian solders could not go home and justify committing those same acts there.

Paul
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:20 pm

franco b wrote:It is the fear of retribution that largely keeps the peace today between nations and often between individuals and in communities.

Hear! Hear! Natural law or no natural law, it’s only his own self-interest that keeps the wolf at bay.

franco b wrote:That it is natural law I think is proven by the knee jerk reaction of almost all species.

You should hope for a dumb species like my cat. When I accidentally stepped on his tail, he didn’t associate it with me, his knee jerk reaction was to attack my shoe. :P
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:41 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:The Russian solders could not go home and justify committing those same acts there.

Sure they could. There were enough examples of German brutality in Russia to look at it as fair play, tit for tat. Rberg's quote from Hamlet was spot on.

Universality is only in the origin not in application. Because wolves are pack animals they had to develop certain inhibitions in their relations with one another to survive and have the advantages that the pack brings, a morality. Humans were not that much different.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:02 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Those are only examples of unique circumstances. The Russian solders could not go home and justify committing those same acts there.

Sorry, I misunderstood the meaning. Of course they could not commit those acts back in Russia because it was on the behalf of the people at home that the acts were committed. Normal moral inhibitions kick in at home. Even business men away from home will often do things that they would not dream of doing otherwise.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:20 pm

wsherrick wrote: We voluntarily forfeit that direct right to a Government to defend those rights by proxy to alleviate (in theory) the need to actively be our own policemen. That in no way removes the primary right to defend your other natural rights from violation.


This is a critical point. Just because I give some other party the authority to do certain things, doesn't mean they are now "above" me in some manner.

If I give an employee the ability to write checks for company business, he doesn't now own my business.

The individual is ALWAYS supreme. Government CAN'T exist without there FIRST being individuals. And those individuals can choose to delegate their authority, which some call "government", but they are not obligated to do so and doing so doesn't remove the right from them.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:28 pm

franco b wrote:
jpete wrote:Don't know where you got that quote but regardless of my personal opinion, rape, murder and theft are all"bad". Not because I think so, but because they are against natural law.

Those deeds justified by the morality of retribution were committed by Russian soldiers after the defeat of Germany. What is moral in one culture or time may not be in another, though the origin in nature may be identical. It is the fear of retribution that largely keeps the peace today between nations and often between individuals and in communities.

The orthodox follower of Islam believes that sharia law is more moral because it protects the innocent to a greater extent, while we feel that it is barbaric, but underneath it all is still that old natural law of retribution. That it is natural law I think is proven by the knee jerk reaction of almost all species. The same aspect of morality can be expressed in many ways which makes moral justification difficult and claiming it as part of natural law more so.


But all that stuff conflicts with natural law and is automatically "immoral".

If morality is determined by time and place and individuals, then there is no such thing as morality.

You have a right to your life. From there other rights flow. To argue that depending on your point of view, that might not be true is suicidal.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:48 pm

jpete wrote:But all that stuff conflicts with natural law and is automatically "immoral".

If morality is determined by time and place and individuals, then there is no such thing as morality.

You have a right to your life. From there other rights flow. To argue that depending on your point of view, that might not be true is suicidal.


It does not conflict with natural law because it is natural law. The expression of it can be moral or not depending on the culture. morality is usually thought of as what a society considers right or wrong. That definition does not go deep enough. What it really is, is a set of inhibitions and responses genetically imposed on our species to govern behaviour and to smooth the way toward social existence. The root tendency can be manipulated by circumstance, as in convincing young SS recruits that what they were asked to do was moral. Aggression under some circumstances is moral and in others not. It is perfectly acceptable in the conflict of sports while following set rules as it is in war. Courtesy is another moral way to smooth interactions and the Brits are generally more courteous than Americans and the Japanese go way beyond everyone to cope with overcrowding. Part of our makeup, and the way of the cat is different from the way of the dog though both are moral in their species behaviour.

Suicide or self sacrifice or altruism is also morally imposed in some circumstances and is common in other species also.
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:20 am

franco b wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:The Russian solders could not go home and justify committing those same acts there.

Sure they could. There were enough examples of German brutality in Russia to look at it as fair play, tit for tat. Rberg's quote from Hamlet was spot on.

Universality is only in the origin not in application. Because wolves are pack animals they had to develop certain inhibitions in their relations with one another to survive and have the advantages that the pack brings, a morality. Humans were not that much different.


I should have been clearer on that.

What I meant to say was, those Russian solders could not go home, commit those same acts at home and justify it. What "rights" they thought they had in Germany wasn't a "natural law" at home in Russia. No universality.

Some humans may act like wolves but history has shown that is limited so it doesn't hold for all.

There's an other old saying, "An eye for an eye, just leads to a lot of blind people."

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:29 am

franco b wrote:
jpete wrote:But all that stuff conflicts with natural law and is automatically "immoral".

If morality is determined by time and place and individuals, then there is no such thing as morality.

You have a right to your life. From there other rights flow. To argue that depending on your point of view, that might not be true is suicidal.


It does not conflict with natural law because it is natural law. The expression of it can be moral or not depending on the culture. morality is usually thought of as what a society considers right or wrong. That definition does not go deep enough. What it really is, is a set of inhibitions and responses genetically imposed on our species to govern behaviour and to smooth the way toward social existence. The root tendency can be manipulated by circumstance, as in convincing young SS recruits that what they were asked to do was moral. Aggression under some circumstances is moral and in others not. It is perfectly acceptable in the conflict of sports while following set rules as it is in war. Courtesy is another moral way to smooth interactions and the Brits are generally more courteous than Americans and the Japanese go way beyond everyone to cope with overcrowding. Part of our makeup, and the way of the cat is different from the way of the dog though both are moral in their species behaviour.

Suicide or self sacrifice or altruism is also morally imposed in some circumstances and is common in other species also.


If we can't behave any differently than cats and dogs then I guess there is no hope.

I personally don't think animals have morality or rights for that matter. If they did, then PETA is correct and "meat is murder".
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:05 am

jpete wrote:You have a right to your life.

Tell that to the antelope who was eaten by the lion.

jpete wrote:From there other rights flow.

Be that as it may, we were discussing whether GOVERNMENT is needed to defend those rights. Now we’re not even sure there ARE rights. We should have quit a while back. :P
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Re: Class warfare. Are the superrich really evil ?

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:21 pm

rberq wrote:
jpete wrote:You have a right to your life.

Tell that to the antelope who was eaten by the lion.

jpete wrote:From there other rights flow.

Be that as it may, we were discussing whether GOVERNMENT is needed to defend those rights. Now we’re not even sure there ARE rights. We should have quit a while back. :P


So you believe animals have rights? Are you a vegetarian or a murderer?

Or is this one of those situational ethics things?

If rights and morals are societal based, why did we have trials at Nuremberg? Clearly that society at that time didn't have an issue slaughtering millions.
jpete
 
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