Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: UncleDoDat On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:18 pm

Hey, guys, Hope everyone's enjoying there summer. As some of you may know I am eagerly awaiting my very own Herald #6. Tomorrow I was scheduled to have a "Class 2" chimney inspection. As opposed to a (Class 1) I still don't know the difference other than the price. One cost $199.00 & the other cost $349.00 Well, the son of the owner of Flame Tech just called and basically said that the liability to install one of these stoves is too great. Mind you this is the same snot nosed kid that came out to my home when I was attempting to have a pellet stove installed He talked me into a wood burning stove before my knowledge of coal stoves. (Maybe not snot nosed but REALLY YOUNG)

Well, here, let me start from the beginning. He starts by stating that all UL stoves have to be 36" from any combustibles. And I'm thinking O.K. Check! My measuring tape works this is covered and 36" is not a problem. Then he goes on to tell me that with the stove sitting 36" out into the room we would need to build a new hearth because as it is an UL stove the hearth would need to be 36" around the stove as well, and they just don't make hearth pads that big. Therefore we could be talking about a $2500 install to add more hearth. He then says that he's not sure if the stove would work properly sitting so far into the room something about the draft(36") He then goes on to tell me that since all stoves piping must lead upwards vertically is why we would more than likely would have to drill through the wall a 6in. whole to access the flue. He made it sound like a lot of extra work and money. He then speaks on the liability of his company installing an UL stove. Saying that it would be a great liability on them being UL stove. To me it seemed as if he was looking for every reason not to do the install. It seemed as if he's kinda upset because I didn't get one of their stoves. I mean he actually said that they only like to do stoves that's in there store. Now I know that I'm new to this whole ideal of any kind of stove as an edition for heat. But I can read. Also my book from Amazon has arrived. "Coal Comfort An Alternative Way To Heat Your Home" by Peter Horton, as well that website that sets the standards for all stoves clearances. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with these types of stoves having legs to stand on. Isn't the clearance 12in in the front & 18in on the sides. I tried to recall some of the knowledge that I have learn from this forum. I told him that the piping connection came out of the bottom of the stove. Maybe they just don't understand the stove. This has completely ruined my day. In any event we've decided to wait until the stove is here to take any further action.
UncleDoDat
 

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:57 pm

Welcome to the FORUM my friend. Unfortunately you did NOT read the part about some installers being rip-off's. You need to look up your State code( also National code) on stove installation as far as clearances, hearths & chimney requirements. Some pix of where you are doing the install would be real helpful. Lot's of knowledge & experience here. PS--stay away from things/companies that have the word "TECH" in them. :clap: toothy
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:10 pm

UncleDoDat wrote:Hey, guys, Hope everyone's enjoying there summer. As some of you may know I am eagerly awaiting my very own Herald #6. Tomorrow I was scheduled to have a "Class 2" chimney inspection. As opposed to a (Class 1) I still don't know the difference other than the price. One cost $199.00 & the other cost $349.00 Well, the son of the owner of Flame Tech just called and basically said that the liability to install one of these stoves is too great. Mind you this is the same snot nosed kid that came out to my home when I was attempting to have a pellet stove installed He talked me into a wood burning stove before my knowledge of coal stoves. (Maybe not snot nosed but REALLY YOUNG)

Well, here, let me start from the beginning. He starts by stating that all UL stoves have to be 36" from any combustibles. And I'm thinking O.K. Check! My measuring tape works this is covered and 36" is not a problem. Then he goes on to tell me that with the stove sitting 36" out into the room we would need to build a new hearth because as it is an UL stove the hearth would need to be 36" around the stove as well, and they just don't make hearth pads that big. Therefore we could be talking about a $2500 install to add more hearth. He then says that he's not sure if the stove would work properly sitting so far into the room something about the draft(36") He then goes on to tell me that since all stoves piping must lead upwards vertically is why we would more than likely would have to drill through the wall a 6in. whole to access the flue. He made it sound like a lot of extra work and money. He then speaks on the liability of his company installing an UL stove. Saying that it would be a great liability on them being UL stove. To me it seemed as if he was looking for every reason not to do the install. It seemed as if he's kinda upset because I didn't get one of their stoves. I mean he actually said that they only like to do stoves that's in there store. Now I know that I'm new to this whole ideal of any kind of stove as an edition for heat. But I can read. Also my book from Amazon has arrived. "Coal Comfort An Alternative Way To Heat Your Home" by Peter Horton, as well that website that sets the standards for all stoves clearances. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with these types of stoves having legs to stand on. Isn't the clearance 12in in the front & 18in on the sides. I tried to recall some of the knowledge that I have learn from this forum. I told him that the piping connection came out of the bottom of the stove. Maybe they just don't understand the stove. This has completely ruined my day. In any event we've decided to wait until the stove is here to take any further action.

Hi UncleDoDat,
I'm new to following your posts and was quite confused about the above post. The above confused me because the meat of your post states the guy didn't like installing a UL stove. This is exactly the opposite of what, IMHO, we'd all expect from a "professional" installer. I went to some of your other posts and learned that you chose a Herald #6, an antique stove. In the above, you use the term UL stove. I'd wager to say that generally the term UL, especially written in capital letters, means Underwriters Laboratories. Since your planning on a Herld #6, I'm guessing you mean UnListed stove and not UL as in Underwriters Laboratories registered trade mark "UL®". Stoves rated by UL® that receive the UL® seal is an assurance that they generally will meet modern all safety codes where antique stoves received no such rating- which does not mean they aren't equally as safe!

Am I right? Just trying to clear this up for others that will read this post sometime in the distant future. Not poking you about it at all
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

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Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:13 pm

Sounds like the kid is short sighted and wants to make a killing today , so he can show the old man how good he is, instead of making some money while building trust and a client base, or he's also working on commission. Either way, he's BS-ing you about some of that.

Try reading this, http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.ph ... _woodstove Especially the part about hearths.

The non-UL listed means 36 inch clearance, but you can reduce that with heat shields and such - just like the UL listed stoves do. As I mentioned to you before, talk with the stove restorer and see what they suggest for simple heat shielding added onto the stove. It will reduce the clearance to combustibles even more and when done right, you'd hardly notice.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: UncleDoDat On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:43 pm

Hi UncleDoDat,
I'm new to following your posts and was quite confused about the above post. The above confused me because the meat of your post states the guy didn't like installing a UL stove. This is exactly the opposite of what, IMHO, we'd all expect from a "professional" installer. I went to some of your other posts and learned that you chose a Herald #6, an antique stove. In the above, you use the term UL stove. I'd wager to say that generally the term UL, especially written in capital letters, means Underwriters Laboratories. Since your planning on a Herld #6, I'm guessing you mean UnListed stove and not UL as in Underwriters Laboratories registered trade mark "UL®". Stoves rated by UL® that receive the UL® seal is an assurance that they generally will meet modern all safety codes where antique stoves received no such rating- which does not mean they aren't equally as safe!

Am I right? Just trying to clear this up for others that will read this post sometime in the distant future. Not poking you about it at all


Sorry about any confusion. Yes you are right. I was trying to say un-listed.

Sunny Boy wrote:Sounds like the kid is short sighted and wants to make a killing today Paul
I don't think that the case at all if so. He would have came out and made the 349.99 with the (Class 2) chimney inspection. My honest opinion is that he probably thinks he can talk me into one of their stoves. He kept referring to their stoves and saying nobody deals with coal anymore.. I really think he's confusing the issue not knowing that the down payment has been made on Mr Herald #6 and he will be here regardless of what unit he trying to influence me on. I would figure that the installation process for one of these stove would be the same as any stove if not simpler because of it age, but what'll I know. Manufactures don't make 36" hearth pads either. Go Figure :baby:

Sunny Boy wrote:. As I mentioned to you before, talk with the stove restorer and see what they suggest for simple heat shielding added onto the stove. It will reduce the clearance to combustibles even more and when done right, you'd hardly notice.

Paul


I spoke with Dough at Barnstables Stoves already. That didn't mow over very well with Dough. Think he said I'd have to have a metal shop put something together for me. I know that sucks.
UncleDoDat
 

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:58 pm

I get the impression the chimney/stove installer guy isn't real experienced with coal stoves or antique stoves for that matter. They seem to get all twisted up and nervous when people mention coal. I wish someone with experience at your location was around to help guide you along. Why not install it yourself? Just use good sense and advise from the people on the forum.. Just a suggestion.. :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: UncleDoDat On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:14 pm

Lightning wrote: Why not install it yourself? Just use good sense and advise from the people on the forum.. Just a suggestion.. :)
My knowledge base end with computer tech repair. :ugeek: I am a techno geek. Besides I don't want to put my family at risk that way. I just recently found out about these stoves. Self install is not an option for me. Here's where I'd like to put the stove
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UncleDoDat
 

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:30 pm

Is that chimney accessible behind the wood work--does it have clay liner? How high is the 6 outlet compared to how high the chimney is? Bottom line in this old farmers thoughts is you need to have another installer look your situation over. --there is an old saying about "if you can't dazzle em with your brilliance, baffle em with your BS -- it's sad that you found an installer that knows squat about coal stove installs. All will be fine my friend, just lose the current install bimbo:)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:40 pm

Good advice from Fred. Not only does the installer not know anything but spouts things that are just not true. Not knowing is one thing, but mis statements are more serious.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: ONEDOLLAR On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:46 pm

A semi solution is simple. Find another installer. Don't mean to harsh or cold sounding but find someone else. Did you find a coal dealer in your area? Ask him who he would suggest for an install.
ONEDOLLAR
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 2014 Chubby Prototype
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford #2 Base Heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: UncleDoDat On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:09 pm

Yeah, I can honestly say with not knowing much about these stoves I can smell the BS Spewing from his mouth. I mean a hearth with 36' clearance. That must have sounded good to him. I think for future reference I'll simply call it a wood stove. Seems like when you say coal everyone get there panties in a bunch.

freetown fred wrote:Is that chimney accessible behind the wood work--does it have clay liner? How high is the 6 outlet compared to how high the chimney is?
Not sure as we are new to the home however, I believe that was the point of the "Level 2 Chimney Inspection" to find these things out. He spoke as if he didn't want to take my money for something he was unsure of. In any event I'll just wait until Mr Herald #6 arrives so that whom ever installs has the oppurtunity to actually see the stove. I don't think it's as complex as he was making it out to be. Even if the hearth is the issue I'm sure the hearth pad doesn't have to have a 36' clearance from the stove.
.
ONEDOLLAR wrote:A semi solution is simple. Find another installer. Don't mean to harsh or cold sounding but find someone else. Did you find a coal dealer in your area? Ask him who he would suggest for an install.


That's a great ideal ONEDOLLAR :D :idea: ;however, with the stove not being here as of yet. I'll simply wait, but knowing me I will still inquire from one of the coal dealers.
UncleDoDat
 

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:25 pm

Do you know the condition of the chimney that is there or is that what the inspection was going to tell you? If you have a good chimney there, if I was in your position I would hire someone to install a thimble into the chimney above the mantle. 6" or 8" whichever your Herald requires. That is all you should have them do.

Getting the flue pipe from the stove exhaust port to the thimble is something you can do once the stove arrives. As mentioned heat shields will allow you to lessen the clearances.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: Berlin On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:36 pm

titleist1 wrote:Do you know the condition of the chimney that is there or is that what the inspection was going to tell you? If you have a good chimney there, if I was in your position I would hire someone to install a thimble into the chimney above the mantle. 6" or 8" whichever your Herald requires. That is all you should have them do.

Getting the flue pipe from the stove exhaust port to the thimble is something you can do once the stove arrives. As mentioned heat shields will allow you to lessen the clearances.


what he said.


put a thimble in the flue and make sure the damper is sealed. use the existing stack and forget about the "level 3 inspection" nonsense. Most of these "chimney professionals" wouldn't know what they're looking at if it hit them in the face. Find a mason who builds chimneys have him look it over and ask him to put a thimble in the stack and seal the damper if it looks good.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:56 pm

He may have been part right that the pipe from the stove to the chimney should slope upward since that's the natural direction that draft wants to go. That fireplace does seem low. You may need to punch a hole thru the wall above the fireplace to get into the chimney flue and then seal underneath just above the fireplace to maintain draft integrity, But that shouldn't be a big deal. Little scary, sure. Its gonna make a mess lol but when its finished it will look good and be done right.

The white surround around the fireplace. Is that all wood? If so it may need to be replaced with something incombustible so you can get the stove in closer to the fireplace. You probably don't want it 3 feet out from the fireplace right?

Edit, I just read the posts above... Yeah what he said :lol:
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Unlisted stove liability? Installation CO. Just flaked out

PostBy: UncleDoDat On: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:11 pm

O.K. had to research "Chimney Thimble" just to know what it function was. Basically just to see what it looks like so that I may determine the type of install we are speaking of. So titleist1 & Berlin you guys don't see Mr Herald #6 being installed through the original chimney opening. I'm O.K. with it being installed through a thimble. But just thought that the fireplace opening would be better. IMO

About the thimble installation. Which is through the wall? Above the mantel. Right? Shouldn't this type of install be fairly easier. ? I mean I got the clearance, give me a hearth pad and be on your way Mr. Installer. Leave me to get acquainted with Mr. Herald. Shouldn't this be that simple.?
UncleDoDat
 

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