Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:21 pm

During this passed winter I installed a Yellow Flame stoker boiler in my garage. The refurb and install are in this thread http://nepacrossroads.com/about32023-60.html . On page 5 there is a heated debate over sizing the PEX pipe that runs from the boiler to the heat exchanger. From this debate I determined that I should use 1.25" pipe to transfer about 80,000 BTU.

I ended up buying 1" insulated pipe because I was going to move the boiler to the basement and use the 1" pipe to run a heat exchanger in the garage. Now that's changed, I am keeping the boiler in the garage. My first thought was, oh crap I have to buy 1.25" insulated pipe and install it. Then I started thinking about the whole circuit, there is a lot of 1" threaded pipe in the circuit. this leads me to the question.

Since this is a series circuit and there is 1" threaded pipe and 1" heat exchanger pipe in it, will changing the insulated PEX run to 1.25" make any difference?

Top of the boiler has a 1" outlet.

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Boiler return is 1.25" reduced to 1" then increased to 1.25". Both of these fittings were on there when I got the boiler so, they were part of the original install in the original house many years ago.

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To top it all off, the heat exchanger has 1" inlet and outlet and 1" header pipes.

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1" PEX OB with 3/4" PEX non-OB for domestic water.

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So, I ask, If I install 1.25" insulated PEX will it make a difference?

If I change the near boiler plumbing to 1.25" with the 1.25" PEX, will that make a difference? Keeping in mind the 1" headers on the heat exchanger.

Thank you for your help,

Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Lightning On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:24 pm

The larger pex diameter will allow for less resistance of flow between the 1 inch outlets and inlets. If its a long distance it could help flow volume. If its only a short distance then it probably wouldn't make much difference.. :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Stove Size Mix

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: mozz On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:28 pm

Top of the boiler has a 2" looks like! I am no plumber but i have heard a few on here talking about staying at a Holiday inn or something. Only get so many btu's thru 1" pipe,..... blah blah... and the speed of the water that is circulating and water temp all come in to play. I would clean up the 1.25", new pieces, all 1.25, as it looks like its leaking anyway. How about some pipe insulation? Save some btu's right there.
mozz
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 1982 AA-130 Steam

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:43 pm

Lightning wrote:The larger pex diameter will allow for less resistance of flow between the 1 inch outlets and inlets. If its a long distance it could help flow volume. If its only a short distance then it probably wouldn't make much difference.. :)

That's good to know, it's 75 to 80 feet. That's a lot longer then the heat exchanger headers and the 1" threaded.

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:48 pm

When the system works hard what temperature drop do you observe through the water/air heat exchanger?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:50 pm

mozz wrote:Top of the boiler has a 2" looks like! I am no plumber but i have heard a few on here talking about staying at a Holiday inn or something. Only get so many btu's thru 1" pipe,..... blah blah... and the speed of the water that is circulating and water temp all come in to play. I would clean up the 1.25", new pieces, all 1.25, as it looks like its leaking anyway. How about some pipe insulation? Save some btu's right there.

Boiler and pipe insualtion is in the plan for this year. The fitting in the top of the boiler has been in there I guess since new, 40, 50,70? years, I don't know if I could get it out of there. That is one of the reasons I ask, Will adding 1.25" PEX make any difference, without changing everything to 1.25"???

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Rob R. wrote:When the system works hard what temperature drop do you observe through the water/air heat exchanger?

It fluxuates a lot, between 10 and 30 degrees.

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:59 pm

Does the system keep your house comfortable?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:02 pm

Yes, It does! I guess that's the most imoptant thing, even through last winter.

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:09 pm

If it works well there is no reason to swap out the pex tubing. You might be able to get away with a smaller pump if the tubing was larger, but you already own the 1" tubing and pump...so you might as well run it and stay warm.

Insulating the boiler and piping would likely have the fastest payback of any system improvement you can make.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:48 pm

Rob R. wrote:If it works well there is no reason to swap out the pex tubing. You might be able to get away with a smaller pump if the tubing was larger, but you already own the 1" tubing and pump...so you might as well run it and stay warm.

Insulating the boiler and piping would likely have the fastest payback of any system improvement you can make.

So, because I sized the pump to push 80,000 BTU through 80' of 1" pipe, going to 1.25" PEX won't help much.

I will be insulating the pipe and it hurts but I'm going to insulate the boiler to. I'll have to do some body work on the old covers and get them respectable look'in!

What would be the best thing to insulate the boiler with? I would hate to go back to fiberglass, that is messy, realy messy if it gets wet.

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:42 am

I've used foil-faced foam on EFM's with good results, but you do have to "fit" the pieces around all the pipe fittings.

EFM - Efficiency
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: StokerDon On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:50 pm

Rob R. wrote:I've used foil-faced foam on EFM's with good results, but you do have to "fit" the pieces around all the pipe fittings.

EFM - Efficiency

I looked at that thread and that is about what I was think'in. Does it matter what R value the insulation is? Or do you just put in what will fit under the cover?
If you put the cover back on.

-Don
StokerDon
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Yellow Flame "Competion Series" 3 grate boiler, Losch 475
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska Stoker1? can't figure out these dern Alaska names!!! It's a big old black one.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:32 pm

Another option is Duct board insulation, it has a higher temp rating than the high density foam. It is compressed fiberglass with foil facing. I think it works better than the foam. You still have to cut it around the pipes and gauges and such.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Stoker boiler pipe sizing revisited

PostBy: McGiever On: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:02 pm

Besides all of what was already mentioned, 1-1/4" pex measures less ID than 1-1/4"... so you wouldn't even gain a full 1/4". :roll:
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Visit Lehigh Anthracite