Box Stove to Base Heater Conversion Adventure

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 7:52 am

working from the replys in this thread, Post by KingCoal - Question for the Engineers

i've decided to open 3 extra passages of 3.5 sq. in. each between the 4 original tubes on each side of the fire pot to channel gas to the base chamber.

that will give me roughly 19 sq. in. on each side, 36 sq. in. total or roughly 28% more area than the 6" exhaust collar and should be enough to over come any addition resistance or turbulance. that will also be easy to close up or narrow a couple if the draft is too slow.
Last edited by KingCoal on Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.


 
steamshovel
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Post by steamshovel » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 9:10 am

more "radiating area" can be misleading. to heat it all to the same temp, the stove needs to burn more coal. that means a bigger firebox or firepot is needed, as the radiating area is increased- and less economy. bigger firepot, bigger fire, more coal burned.
adding more passage length and bends under the stove, decreases the draft. the stove and flue temp goes down, when the stoves are put into baseheater mode. the draft falls off due to the bends and longer passages, heating all the extra cast iron soaks up more btu's. the draft has to be opened more to compensate, to reach the same average temp throughout the stove.
the gains are made when the entire stove is evenly heated, rather than just the sides and top around the firebox. the design goal of a baseheater was to get the bottom of the stove nearly equal in temp to the sides and top. but that comes at a price. if the top and sides are 500 degrees in standard mode, and then the baseheater passages opened, the bottom will increase in temp, while the top and sides decrease in temp, as it equalizes throughout the stove. the draft will also go down on a manometer in baseheater mode, draft setting being left the same opening before/after. to then bring the stove back up to the 500 degree level, the draft would have to be opened further.
they need a very good chimney with a very strong draft to pull all those passages.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 9:57 am

thanks SS i'll try to do those concerns justice.

"radiating area" I am adding just 5.46 sq. ft of radiant surface ( 1.037 cubic foot of enclosed volume ) to the stove. which combined with the area of the original stove still allows me to achieve the 27.7 / 1 ratio of radiant surface to grate area and providing the rest of the stove much more direct exposure to the heat generated and the exhaust path.

i don't feel i'm out of line in expecting the stove to work fine with the original size fire pot and no more coal than ever needing to be burned.

"additional exhaust travel path hinders draft" I agree

in my installation the DSM 1400 in original direct draft form ( although I did have an additional draft diverter in place all last season as well ) will produce 450* stove top temps. with the primary open 1/8" and 2 MPD's CLOSED in the smoke pipe.

i believe I have more than enough draft to cover all likely operational conditions.

thanks,
steve
Last edited by KingCoal on Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 10:49 am

any comments on the area / volume of the proposed draft channels ?

thanks,
steve

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 11:13 am

KingCoal wrote:any comments on the area / volume of the proposed draft channels ?

thanks,
steve
I don't think you need be concerned with area. Restriction within the stove seems to have less effect than the same restriction outside the stove. If your method raises fire box temp. then all the better. There should be means though to choose direct draft when starting. The VC stoves and Oaks with indirect pipes cut the flue area in half or less when in indirect mode.

The two paths to higher stove efficiency are added or more effective heat exchange and higher combustion efficiency. I am optimistic that your design will do both.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 11:25 am

thanks franco b,

in that case I think i'll go with just 2 extra areas on each side and keep the total area of the channels pretty much exactly the same as the sections of the base chamber they empty into.

i have a direct / indirect draft path damper in the design. :D

 
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Post by McGiever » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 1:55 pm

i have a direct / indirect draft path damper in the design.
Any consideration for a check damper in the design?
Most original stoves had them, and with your draft there your stove could benefit from one.
The necessity of having to use 2 inline flue dampers is proof of the check damper requirement. :)


 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 2:26 pm

yes, a check damper has been brought up.

from the pics and descriptions that have been given they look to me to be a manual " Baro. " damper.

I didn't care for the "auto" version in my installation and the idea of adding a location where exhaust has a chance to escape the stove or pipe makes me nervous.

my present point of view is that the in line dampers are easier and safer since the whole path stays sealed.

is there more to this that i'm not understanding ?

thanks,
steve

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 2:53 pm

I don't think Mc giever was referring to a check damper on the stove pipe elbow, but rather a shutter within the ash pan area that when opened provides a direct route to the flue. Allows the air to bypass the coal bed. Very handy in a stove with a loosely fitted ash door.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 3:06 pm

thanks franco b,

that made it past my prejudice and got traction. :oops:

i can make just such a shutter in the floor of the ash pit that would bleed air down into the base chamber but that seems counter productive as would seem to do too much. both reduce the pull up thru the crates AND cool the base chamber.

i could see doing it toward the very back of the ash pit floor directly into the last inches of the exhaust tube before it leaves the back of the chamber.

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 3:31 pm

Usually it was on the back wall of the ash pit, just where the exhaust tube is located, so it went directly to the flue. Without that convenient location it would be a lot of trouble to do. Probably not worth it.

 
KingCoal
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 4:12 pm

i may have to go ahead and provide for it now, while i'm in the assembly phase I can arrange it pretty easily.

later, I would have to put out the stove and remove the base chamber.

the whole idea has become more reasonable as I have just done some more measuring for the final hook up. due to the 13.5" over increase in height ( new 9" legs under the 4.5" base chamber ) there will only be about 4" of pipe between the "T" leaving the original stove collar and the elbow into the thimble. no room for second MPD for extra control in direct mode. :x

new over all height of stove will be 49". maybe I can get away with less space under the base chamber ?

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 6:56 pm

If you do provide a check damper in the ash pit, best to provide a rod to adjust from exterior of stove.

 
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Post by McGiever » Sat. Aug. 09, 2014 10:48 pm

Yes, I was meaning in the rear of the ash pan w/ direct pathway into the flue. Thanks Franco. :)

It has other benefits as well, open it during shake downs and it then allows airborne fly ash to bypass the longer flue pathways within the stove. :)

 
KingCoal
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Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Sun. Aug. 10, 2014 8:41 am

steamshovel wrote:.
the gains are made when the entire stove is evenly heated, rather than just the sides and top around the firebox. the design goal of a baseheater was to get the bottom of the stove nearly equal in temp to the sides and top. but that comes at a price. if the top and sides are 500 degrees in standard mode, and then the baseheater passages opened, the bottom will increase in temp, while the top and sides decrease in temp, as it equalizes throughout the stove. the draft will also go down on a manometer in baseheater mode, draft setting being left the same opening before/after. to then bring the stove back up to the 500 degree level, the draft would have to be opened further.
they need a very good chimney with a very strong draft to pull all those passages.
i knew there was something about this that I couldn't reconcile in my head but it took me a while to realize what it was and how to express it.

now in general this would be true of most stoves, that being if you wanted ALL the furthest parts from the firepot the same temp. as the closest you would have to burn pretty hot.

but, that's the problem right there. if the intent and the experience of the users back in the 1900's was to have the base chambers of these stoves running 500* in order to be correct, every house they were ever installed in would have burned right down.

this idea of having or even wanting the same temp. thru out these stoves is not what the current users are experiencing and reporting. it took me some time to remember where I had seen a report of stove area temps. while in operation to share to illustrate this.

EarlH has provided it here.

Favorite Baseburner #261

this description of the "heat" dropping as it gets further from the fire pot is echoed by many members here in other threads as well. I have always thought that it represented the desired effect, that of the stove progressively giving off the heat in the exhaust path till by the time the gas enters the chimney thimble there is so little left that you can hold your hand on the stove pipe for as long as you want.

am I incorrect about this ?

thanks,
steve


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