box stove to base heater conversion adventure

box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:55 pm

Ok i'm starting this thread as promised to cover the building and attachment of a base chamber to my DSM 1400 to achieve what i will call a "surrounded" fire pot base heater.

as things progress it will become clear that this isn't a true suspended design. there just isn't enough room to get the exhaust gas to move past all 4 sides of the fire pot.

i'm going to do the fab. and welding of the base chamber first, then do pics of it and the alterations to the 1400 together.

right now i'm planing to use the bypass damper from my retired riteway #37 as the main means of controlling operation in either direct or base heat gas path from inside the stove body. i may back this up with a home made solid "complete close off" MPD in the bottom of the back pipe. that will wait to the very late stages if i feel it's nec.

sorry i don't have more, i just picked up the metal i couldn't scrounge around the shop and will really start working next week.

thanks,
steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:21 pm

Not sure the "true suspended" ones are either. Isn't the firepot edge closed off at the loading door area ?

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:35 pm

well it really depends on the make.

some are like the GW 6 and 8 and transfer the exhaust via an external passage. those are closed at the rim of the firepot with the exception of secondary air inlets.

others actually draw the exhaust gas up over the rim of the fire pot, usually with the exception of just the very front area where the ash door is in the way, and down between the outside of the pot and the inside of the cylinder or lower stove casing. in these case the ash chamber is sealed under the grates.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

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Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: wsherrick On: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:30 pm

I'm interested to see how this all turns out. If they were smart the box makers should be interested as well. Make sure you make careful comparison notes about the before and after.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:41 pm

Hi William, thanks for the support.

as far as comparo notes go, i have several threads in the archives here detailing my experience and efforts with the "stock" DSM 1400. they are all easy to find under my screen name or a forum search of " DSM 1400". i'll be reporting the new operation as completely as i can.

i have things coming together pretty well. i did have to make another adjustment to the configuration of the base chamber this week because as i was working with the model i realized i had an access and clearance issue for a very important weld. just needed to move a feature 1/4" to take care of it but, that's the kind of thing you want to find while playing with cardboard not after you've done a bunch of cutting and forming in steel.

thank,
steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: steamshovel On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:08 am

keep it simple. the design just slows down the flue path and winds it around, to hopefully extract more heat, before it goes out the chimney. you could build that winding flue path entirely outside the stove, behind or above it, from thick wall cast pipe, or steel, or a box type attachment similar to a muffler with chambers in it. it doesn't have to be under the stove to work. it can be just behind or above it. a bolt on system that can be connected to the stovepipe exit of any stove, something like a series of elbows, may be a saleable item. there are some of these types of products on the market already, and they work, the wood burning crowd use them often. I think you'll find the gains may be modest, possibly hard to measure, but will be a rewarding, fun, interesting experiment.
Last edited by steamshovel on Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
steamshovel
 

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:44 pm

right, i understand your point of view.

i could......just make a back pipe that comes off the collar and drops toward the floor, takes 2 elbows and comes back up to the thimble and have more radiant surface before the exhaust leaves the living space or.................

leave the collar directly into a horizontal tee then short sections of pipe into elbows going up into more elbows and pipe into a second horizontal tee, then into the thimble, or .......................... etc. etc.

but, that isn't all i want.

the DSM 1400 is a good and totally service worthy unit as it is for the application and installations it was built for.

i just don't happen to be using it in either of those and in my opinion it can be a much better radiant base heater than it is a circulator.

to keep it short, in original configuration it doesn't exploit it's surface area nearly well enough and in fact loses a good bit of potential by the fact that the fire pot is un-necesarily cooled by the circulator tubes and the same tubes insulate the upper side walls of the combustion chamber from the heat produced. that is further complicated by the fact that the area and ability of the tubes is not in my opinion the equal of what is given away by having them in terms of heat delivery IN MY INSTALLATION.

i want to repeat right here, as i have before, that the DSM line of circulator stoves is VERY good. they are built to a very high standard and are just as capable, in their intended design and installations. i, on the other hand want mine to do something else and am sure it will and quite well.

my intention is very simple. use the existing tubes and some additional space among them to move the exhaust gas down the whole side of the stove past the fire pot and into a base chamber with 2 baffles creating 3 sections the center of which will lead out the back of the chamber into a standard 6" stove collar and then stove pipe up to the chimney thimble.

that will mean that all the hot gases created by the burn will go up into the upper stove and be pushed into direct contact with the top and all 4 sides of the upper stove by the hopper, then drawn down between the lower sides of the stove and the outside of the fire pot into the base chamber, where they will preheat the primary air moving thru the ash pit. then out from there into an exposed single wall stove pipe 5 ft. tall into an elbow and into the thimble.

fab work starts this coming week with pics to follow. thanks to all who have been watching already, please feel free to make all and any comments that come to mind.

steve
Last edited by KingCoal on Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:50 pm

steamshovel wrote:keep it simple. the design just slows down the flue path and winds it around, to hopefully extract more heat, before it goes out the chimney. you could build that winding flue path entirely outside the stove, behind or above it, from thick wall cast pipe, or steel, or a box type attachment similar to a muffler with chambers in it. it doesn't have to be under the stove to work. it can be just behind or above it. a bolt on system that can be connected to the stovepipe exit of any stove, something like a series of elbows, may a saleable item. there are some of these types of products on the market already, and they work, the wood burning crowd use them often. I think you'll find the gains may be modest, possibly hard to measure, but will be a rewarding, fun, interesting experiment.


If you want to raise the basic efficiency of a box stove which at any temperature range is far below a base burner, you have to do more than extend the exhaust area. You have to improve the combustion area to fire pot area ratio. You have to be able to pre heat the secondary air. You have to be able to raise the temperature of the fire bed across the entire range of combustion.
You have to be able to consume the volatile gasses and have the combustion area hot enough to convert the produced CO into CO2. You also have to have the correct proportion of surface area to grate ratio as well.
The mere basics in the difference between a simple box stove and a base burner design is astronomical.
The attempt here is to make a Ferrari out of an Ox Cart with wooden wheels. I hope he manages to get at least a Chevy Nova out of it.
He is attempting to rectify those shortcomings in a box stove. I think it is a noble endeavor.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:43 pm

wsherrick wrote:
steamshovel wrote:keep it simple. the design just slows down the flue path and winds it around, to hopefully extract more heat, before it goes out the chimney. you could build that winding flue path entirely outside the stove, behind or above it, from thick wall cast pipe, or steel, or a box type attachment similar to a muffler with chambers in it. it doesn't have to be under the stove to work. it can be just behind or above it. a bolt on system that can be connected to the stovepipe exit of any stove, something like a series of elbows, may a saleable item. there are some of these types of products on the market already, and they work, the wood burning crowd use them often. I think you'll find the gains may be modest, possibly hard to measure, but will be a rewarding, fun, interesting experiment.


If you want to raise the basic efficiency of a box stove which at any temperature range is far below a base burner, you have to do more than extend the exhaust area. You have to improve the combustion area to fire pot area ratio. You have to be able to pre heat the secondary air. You have to be able to raise the temperature of the fire bed across the entire range of combustion.
You have to be able to consume the volatile gasses and have the combustion area hot enough to convert the produced CO into CO2. You also have to have the correct proportion of surface area to grate ratio as well.
The mere basics in the difference between a simple box stove and a base burner design is astronomical.
The attempt here is to make a Ferrari out of an Ox Cart with wooden wheels. I hope he manages to get at least a Chevy Nova out of it.
He is attempting to rectify those shortcomings in a box stove. I think it is a noble endeavor.


thanks William,

i have put a decent amount of study into the points you bring up. they have been covered in threads through out this forum and i have spent time evaluating my donor stove for their satisfaction.

truth is i think i'm starting with much more than an ox cart and don't believe it is lacking or ineffective in the areas you mention.

will the project prove all i hope ? can't say for sure. what i can say is, no matter what even if it turns out to be just a GOOD radiant stove it will be a better stove.

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:02 pm

KingCoal wrote:will the project prove all i hope ? can't say for sure. what i can say is, no matter what even if it turns out to be just a GOOD radiant stove it will be a better stove.

Knowing your attention to detail and objectivity I am looking forward to how this comes out. I don't doubt it will be a better stove and that a lot will be learned. You are not starting with a clean slate so there are areas where you have to compromise with the existing design, but on the other hand you will have a hopper and thermostat both of which should help.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: wsherrick On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:09 pm

Me too franco. I'm very interested in the outcome.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:14 pm

wsherrick wrote:Me too franco. I'm very interested in the outcome.



Same here.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:47 pm

thanks guys,

i'm not trying to build a new stove and i know it's not a "white paper" project. heck the DSM 1400 wasn't even my first choice in support candidates.

my first choice was a very obscure stove built in another Amish shop, 35 miles from my house. i looked it over and went thru all the features i'd have to add to it, then realized all of them were either present in the 1400 or alot more readily possible.

the only ratio aspect that has come up that isn't fully satisfied is the height of combustion chamber to area of grates. when i looked into that it pretty much resolved to cubic volume. of course all the examples were of period firm Oaks and base heaters which have round cylinders.

these were all smaller in dia. than my stoves smallest width / length measurement. so when i did the cubic volume on them based on their known height i was delighted to find that the area enclosed above my fire pot is only very slightly off the mark and that if i used the sq. ft. area of my stoves upper radiant surface it was just as close as the cubic volume of the originals.

the fore runners knew their stuff for sure, but not all of it has been left disregarded by ALL the present builders.

thanks again for watching, i hope you'll be pleased with the out come.

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: steamshovel On: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:51 am

are you building a "baseheater" or a bona fide true "baseburner" ? the experts tell me there is a difference. my understanding is, a baseburner exhausts straight down around the outer edge of the firepot, into the bottom of the stove, before the flue gases move upward through the back and out. these should subject the bottom of the stove to higher temps than a "baseheater".

while a "baseheater" flows out the back of the stove above the firepot first, then vertically downward outside the main barrel of the stove chamber, around the bottom, and back up and out- they were an natural progression built upon the original Oak stove designs

the dimensions of old stoves, had a lot to do with looks, magazine capacity, and convenience. they wanted a stove high enough to easily pour coal in, without kneeling down, or stooping over straining your back, while holding the bucket. the higher the stove was, the longer the magazine could be, and hold more coal. just like a bikini model, the taller it is, it's a bigger canvas to hang more decorations on. ;) in this case chrome trim, bonnet, finial. it was the guilded age, the most efficient stove in the world, would not do well in the market, if it was homely. the extensive décor on those old stoves was a sales and consumer trend of the time. labor was cheap, mfrs. could afford craftsman to etch out those complicated cast iron molding patterns.
steamshovel
 

Re: box stove to base heater conversion adventure

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:21 am

well, you have an excellent question and i admit being slack in my terms and led your previous comments off, sorry.

this project is actually a "baseburner" by definition. draws heat down the interior of the stove into the base chamber. by my calculations it has a large potential for generating far more heat than the former configuration.

hopefully i'll burn my coal that last little bit to totally consumed talc like dust and burn little less for the same heat over the same period.

thanks,
steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DSM 1400, Riteway # 37, Comforter Stove Works
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none
Stove/Furnace Model: 2013 1400 Circulator

Visit Hitzer Stoves