Advice for a Fence Sitter.

 
NorthernNewYork
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Post by NorthernNewYork » Wed. Feb. 06, 2008 10:39 pm

New member looking for some advice. Looking to go the way of a coal stoker stove in my living room, venting through the wall. Single story ranch about 1500sf. I started off looking for a pellet stove, did some research and found what probably everyone else on this forum has found. Coal = more BTU's for the buck. Called a local stove retailer who talked my ear off for 35 min trying to convince me that coal isn't worth it. For some reason doesn't carry them anymore. His argument is that even though coal has higher BTU and is generally cheaper than other fuels, the efficiency is a lot less (hence what you think your saving, goes out the vent even with a good stoker) than a good pellet stove. I probably don't need all the BTU that coal would give me over a pellet stove, but I still like idea of paying less per BTU. So....couple questions...

1. How efficient are some of these coal stokers? Can't seem to find any numbers anywhere. My two fav's are the Harman dvc-500 (a lil on the expensive side) and Keystokers base 70k BTU model.
2. I am led to believe that a used coal stoker, in order to decent, has to be very well taken care of (rust, acid, etc) or else not worth crap after 3 years. Any hope of finding one at a poor mans price?
3. Even if the avg efficiency of a coal stoker is 50%, say would spend equal amounts on pellets as coal, would this be true? Would a 70- 80k BTU coal stoker be the same as a 45k BTU pellet stove?

So at this point, I do like the fact that storage is much easier with coal. Could potentially get more heat out of it, and maybe save ca$h. On the neg side, I do like that pellet is renewable and is generally more efficient, but prices are rising all the time. Feedback much appreciated. Thanks!


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Wed. Feb. 06, 2008 11:15 pm

There's a excellent fuel comparison chart here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls
NorthernNewYork wrote: 1. How efficient are some of these coal stokers? Can't seem to find any numbers anywhere.
Good question and I don't have an answer but you could assume 75% or better. It's going to vary by make/model. Why not ask the pellet guy since he knows so much. :D Jerry from Leisure Line could probably give you answer for his products, try posting your efficiency question there. I'd be interested myself in the answer. Leisure Line Stove Company
2. I am led to believe that a used coal stoker, in order to decent, has to be very well taken care of (rust, acid, etc) or else not worth crap after 3 years. Any hope of finding one at a poor mans price?
Even with extreme abuse I'd venture to guess you'll get 10 years out of it. Having said that a few hours after you shut it down in the Spring is all that is required. It's not a constant maintenance deal. A few hours each year will add considerable life. Simply put you want to clean out as much ash as possible, disconnect the flue pipe and keep it open so it stays dry. Others have sprayed it down with rust preventative sprays but I really don't think thats absolutely necessary. These are all well built products made to last decades with proper care and routine replcement of parts that simply go bad or wear out. Grates for example don't last forever.
3. Even if the avg efficiency of a coal stoker is 50%, say would spend equal amounts on pellets as coal, would this be true? Would a 70- 80k BTU coal stoker be the same as a 45k BTU pellet stove?
50% is not even close, again varies. You'd have to check with the manufacturer on that to get any real numbers.

 
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LsFarm
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Post by LsFarm » Wed. Feb. 06, 2008 11:32 pm

NNY, welcome to the forum I'll try to answer your questions

A used stoker stove is rarely in truely bad shape after three years. Many stoves that are given only token maintenance are still working well after many years.. a little surface rust inside the stove body is not a concern. I would not be concerned buying a five or ten year old stoker, if I can see it first.

Most stoker stoves, if using a properly setup barometric damper will have a cool to the touch chimney flue pipe, while the stove body and fans will be putting out significant heat.. As for actual efficiency numbers I don't know. I've run three stoker stoves, and all had very little heat loss up the flue, but put out significant heat. All three were LiesureLine stoves.

A ton of pellets has half the btus of a ton of coal. Pellets get damp, swell, grow mold, and have very erratic pricing. Coal stores well, doesn't suffer from any exposure to moisture, or time in storage. And the pricing is fairly stable.

I restored an AxemanAnderson stoker boiler that had been under water several times in floods, and it's production date was 1950 !! It did need some repairs, but nothing that I couldn't handle, and it is now heating my house and shop.

Check with forum member Matthaus, send him a PM about used stoves, He has several undergoing restoration most of the time.

Hope this helps.. Greg L.

 
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coalstoves
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Post by coalstoves » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 4:15 am

NorthernNewYork wrote:New member looking for some advice. Looking to go the way of a coal stoker stove in my living room, venting through the wall.
So at this point, I do like the fact that storage is much easier with coal. Could potentially get more heat out of it, and maybe save ca$h. On the neg side, I do like that pellet is renewable and is generally more efficient, but prices are rising all the time. Feedback much appreciated. Thanks!
I have watched the pellet thing come build momentum and begin to fade, They just aren't that great . The choice as you have found is relatively clear especially if you are near coal, but even if your not BTU per dollar it is still the cheapest fossil fuel available . I wouldn't worry to much about the renewable thing thats more an enviro nazi marketing ploy than anything .

 
lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 5:31 am

coal stoves last a long time, most of them are built to last and last many years if not abused.........my alaska stoker was built in 1986, my efm was built in 1982, and the kenmore and the warm morning have got to be at least 50 yrs old......we have a 1882 mt penn stove company potbelly stove also

 
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Post by katman » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 8:22 am

Last October I decided to get a pellet stove to replace the wood stove in my pole barn. While shopping, I started thinking about coal but figured getting a good source for coal in my area would be a lot harder than buying pellets. So, bought a pellet stove. Then, I noticed an old Alaska Kodiak II stoker in the classified. Went and took a look at the stove (at least 15 years old) and bought it. I have both the pellet stove and coal stove in the barn. If your interested, I'll sell you both. I'm planning to get a coal boiler so I can heat both the barn and the house. The pellet stove starts easy, but the stoker doesn't require much more effort for a lot more heat.

BTW, my local stove shop really pushed the pellet stove, but that's because he sells pellets but doesn't sell coal.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 9:09 am

NorthernNewYork wrote:Called a local stove retailer who talked my ear off for 35 min trying to convince me that coal isn't worth it.
Do not make any decisions based on what a dealer has to offer. He is in business to make money and you are the mark. The only thing cheaper than coal is the heat from volcanic activity and this is not Iceland.
Coal at the very least operate at about 60-62 % E in a lousy stove. A lousy stoker (are there any?) would start at about 70-75% E and a good stoker boiler can achieve 80-85% E. I have an inefficient hand fired boiler, I would guess in the mid 60% E range. It costs about 1/3 of what the oil runs me AND my house is warmer. The final cost makes effieciency a non issue.

We report, you decide.


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 9:23 am

To put this into perspective lets give you some real world numbers. At the most I'll venture to guess for 1500 sq. foot you're going to need 4 tons for the entire season, 5 tons at the very most. Estimate it at $250 a ton you're only looking at $1000 to $1250 a year, you can also heat your domestic hot water with it as well...

Others would be able to give you better estimates as to what they are using but on average a 2000 sq. foot house is going to require 4-5 tons so you're more likey to be in the 4 ton range.

 
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Post by spc » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 9:49 am

I'm heating a 1400 sq. ft. house 2 floors, solid brick walls (poor insulation), good attic insulation, good windows & doors. I will burn about 2.5 tons this year, 69* (night) 72* (day) with a LL Pioneer.

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 10:04 am

2200' leaker w/lousy windows & insulation @ 5 tons a year, warm as toast.

 
GENERD66
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Post by GENERD66 » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 10:29 am

I was quoted 87%-92% on my Keystoker 90, Stack temp runs around 125*

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 11:29 am

GENERD66 wrote:I was quoted 87%-92% on my Keystoker 90
There are two undisputable champions in residential coal heating efficiency, the A-A and AHS which under the best circumstances can achieve about 87%. Those #s you were quoted are bogus unless they are based on something other than BTU input (they could be based on BTU output?).
The Keystoker is a great unit and close to the pair I mentioned so I would not discount its fitness for duty. Just for the record, I don't think there are any "bad" stokers being made today. They all have good reputations of being reliable and economical. The initial cost is probably the true deciding factor for most purchases.

The point I'm trying to make is don't base your decision on efficiency #s, do it on which unit will serve your needs best. The differences in E #s will amount to a few dollars a year. The different brands are very different in many ways and their operation and maintenance requirements all differ. Buying a unit that doesn't fit your needs and lifestyle will cost a lot more than the few dollars in aggravation alone.

When switching from oil/gas to coal your going to save a ton of money no matter what you decide on buying, but there is some work involved. How much your willing to do vs. initial cost is your real issue here.

By the way, pellets are not as green or efficient as eveyone would lead you to believe. There are always shortages which means if your entire garage isn't full of them in the fall, you may be burning that other fuel you don't want to burn before your heating season is half over.

 
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Post by Jerry & Karen » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 6:12 pm

I know some of these stove companys are promising some real great numbers when it comes to efficiency. We can't any won't claim that. Our stoves run about 80% to 83% at best. The bottom vent pulls the better number. I'm a firm believer in sending some heat up the chimney and ALWAYS pulling a draft. At 92% efficiency you would need some sort of power assist to empty out the stove. I don't doubt any ones number ratings, but I know when we were kids everyone had a 450 HP car, till they went on the dyno.
:oops: :oops:
Jerry

 
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Post by beatle78 » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 8:58 pm

Before I bought my Harman Magnum Stoker, I thought long and hard about a pellet stove. I didn't haven the resources of this forum, but I did read that there was more BTU's in coal than wood pellets.

BUT when I found out that pellets can be RUINED from moisture, I quickly made the decision to buy coal. My bin is currently leaking with all of this rain we're having and my coal is just as good as wnen they delivered it. Maybe better b/c the water washed some of the dust away :D

It is a bit dirtier, but I would NEVER consider a pellet stove. Plus I've never heard of a coal shortage in our area. I have heard of people having a hard time finding pellets come mid winter and their supply is running low.....

 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Thu. Feb. 07, 2008 9:34 pm

beatle78 wrote: It is a bit dirtier, but I would NEVER consider a pellet stove. Plus I've never heard of a coal shortage in our area.
It happens but its usually around this time of year and after/during a very long cold spell. May not affect outlying areas if the dealers are purchasing well in advance for the season because they already have it.


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