efm pressure is too high

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: e.alleg On: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:54 pm

"ASME Code Stamps cost approximately $1600 each every three years,..." I don't understand. My boiler has an ASME stamp on it, that seemingly cost EFM $1600 plus the share of the inspection fee when it was built. Does EFM have to pay $1600 every 3 years for the stamp that is on my boiler, or has it expired? Seems confusing, although I am running a fever today. :?
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: stoker-man On: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:50 pm

As far as I know, your stamp is valid for life.

I don't know what the actual stamp costs, but we have heard as to how much extra cost is quoted if you need the stamp.

We are called every once in awhile by an inspector who is confirming that the stamp is indeed valid. He will give us the serial number and we look through the records to confirm that it was coded originally. These inquiries can go back for boilers many years old.

I believe there may have been some lax enforcement of this rule in the past, but that changed in this NE area of PA after a boiler explosion in a church in Emmaus which did extreme damage to the entire building.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:59 pm

e.alleg wrote:"ASME Code Stamps cost approximately $1600 each every three years,..." I don't understand. My boiler has an ASME stamp on it, that seemingly cost EFM $1600 plus the share of the inspection fee when it was built. Does EFM have to pay $1600 every 3 years for the stamp that is on my boiler, or has it expired? Seems confusing, although I am running a fever today. :?


That cost isn't for each and every boiler, its the cost for the company to hold the stamp in their name for three years.

ASME accredits companies in the pressure vessel industry. They certify that their products, services and quality system comply with the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code.


So yes, its confusing. :)
Last edited by coaledsweat on Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: stoker-man On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:48 am

Somehow, Yanche's post was deleted. ?????

So, the AHS boilers aren't coded? except for special request? and cost?
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:36 am

stoker-man wrote:So, the AHS boilers aren't coded? except for special request? and cost?


Yes, I believe you can pay an additional sum for a coded boiler from AHS, it will be pricey. :sick: IIRC its about $2000.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:49 am

I just called AHS, you can buy one with the H stamp for an additional $2000. ASME does in fact inspect the boiler if it is to carry the H stamp. Once when all the internal welds are done and a second time when the vessel is complete. The second inspection includes a hydrostatic test. It should be noted that all their boilers are built in exactly the same fashion and with the same materials and employees so without the stamp you are getting the same boiler you would if it were not stamped.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: stoker-man On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:20 pm

As I understand their site, they don't use stay rods, which are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Coaledsweat is right on. The initial inspection is when the boiler is tacked, then they go over all the papers for the certification of the steel used in the boiler, then the final inspections. A state inspector is on-site for the entire duration of the inspections.

The way it's done, a bunch of units are made up and go through the steps of inspection and then the price for the coding is split evenly among all the boilers, saving money. If you're being charged $2000, it's because only one boiler was made and inspected. Or possibly, several were made, say 4, but $2000 is still being charged instead of $500 as a profit maker. Who knows?

The builder may not want a bunch of unsold units sitting around for customers ???

We frequently have L&I inspectors calling us for stoker boilers that are 40+ years old asking about the H stamp, and we have all the records to prove that the stamp is valid. The stamp is valid for life and if welding repairs are made, they have to be made by a certified welder, yet the stamp remains valid.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:37 pm

stoker-man wrote:The stamp is valid for life and if welding repairs are made, they have to be made by a certified welder, yet the stamp remains valid.


Repairs must be made only by someone that holds an R stamp. The R stamp is for individuals who posses the knowlege to make a proper repair. No one else can do the work or the H stamp is done for, it cannot hold the certification without the R stamp after a repair.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: e.alleg On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:55 pm

here's what the AHS site says: "Stays are rods that pass through the water wall and are welded to the water wall at each end of the stay. The purpose of stays is to ensure that the water wall remains rigid and does not warp as it is heated. In a non-ASME-code-compliant boiler, we use carbon steel stays and weld over the end of the stays to prevent the carbon steel from oxidizing. The ASME code requires stays to be visible. The purpose of this requirement is so that the inspector can easily see that the stays have been included in the boiler assembly. In ASME-code-compliant boilers, Alternate Heating Systems uses stainless steel stays so that the protruding ends do not oxidize."

I guess the extra $2,000 helps cover the cost of the stainless, seems a little high to me.
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:11 pm

e.alleg wrote:I guess the extra $2,000 helps cover the cost of the stainless, seems a little high to me.


It isn't so much the individual boiler they build you is costing a lot more. Its the paperwork, training and documentation to maintain the H stamp that drives the cost up.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:53 pm

e.alleg wrote:here's what the AHS site says: "Stays are rods that pass through the water wall and are welded to the water wall at each end of the stay. The purpose of stays is to ensure that the water wall remains rigid and does not warp as it is heated. In a non-ASME-code-compliant boiler, we use carbon steel stays and weld over the end of the stays to prevent the carbon steel from oxidizing. The ASME code requires stays to be visible. The purpose of this requirement is so that the inspector can easily see that the stays have been included in the boiler assembly. In ASME-code-compliant boilers, Alternate Heating Systems uses stainless steel stays so that the protruding ends do not oxidize."

I guess the extra $2,000 helps cover the cost of the stainless, seems a little high to me.
Here's my interpretation of what AHS does:

Non-code compliant - Steel stay, welded over end so you can't inspect to see if a stay is present. The purpose of the weld over is to protect the steel stay end. Perhaps it's done with stainless welding rod.

Code compliant - Stainless stay, not welded over but welded so you can see it's present. Protected because the stay is stainless to begin with.

The steel stays must be less expensive than stainless steel ones for this to make any sense.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: Bob On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:56 pm

When I visited AHS I saw boilers during assembly and welding. I don't believe that the coal gun incorporates stays--basically the pressure vessel is a series of concentric circles and don't need the reinforcement that stays provide in designs that have relatively large flat plate sections.

Most of the boilers AHS makes do incorporate relatively large flat plate sections and use stays. If you go to the AHS home page http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/boilers.htm you can see the ends of the stays on the Multi fuel boiler.
Bob
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Anthracite

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: stoker-man On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:04 pm

Quote from AHS: Alternate Heating Systems manufactures all of our boilers to ASME Code specifications with one exception. See What are stays? for an explanation of this exception.

This is why I asked about AHS using stays on all their units. It doesn't appear so from this quote.


http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/ ... php?page=2
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: oilman On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:07 pm

I have been to the factory where the EFM residental oil boilers are made.(not the 520, but I assume the procedure is the same)
The boilers are lined up and tested under pressure for 24 hours by factory employees.If any problems occur, the boiler is taken off line.
Every Thursday, the ASME inspector comes in and the boilers are then tested again for 8 hours.
The steel is all coded w/ serial #'s, etc. This is reflected in the serial # of your boiler.
If you were wondering why EFM might be more expensive, this is one reason.
I have also toured the factory of the largest cast iron boiler mfg. in the USA. The testing procedure took about 3 minutes.
Another reason why if you happen to be in the market for a new oil boiler, go with steel.
Another reason why certain boiler manufact.'s charge alot for a ASME stamp is because they must send their boiler to another factory that is ASME qualified and farm out the assembly/welding to get the approval. Axeman/Anderson does alot of business in this area.

By the way, in New York State, low-water cut-offs are code on all boilers, resi or comm.
oilman
 

Re: efm pressure is too high

PostBy: stoker-man On: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:13 pm

I could add to the list of farmers, but I won't touch that with a 10 foot coal pipe.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove