Caloric Coal/Gas Cookstove...First Fire Since 1939...Maybe
- ntp71
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- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
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- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
Hello,
As some of you may know I bought an old Caloric Cookstove a few years back in near mint condition. It appeared that the coal appliance on this stove may have only been used a few times. The grates are in excellent condition and the ash pan still had ash in it. Inside the ash pan were old bank envelopes from the Forty Fort Bank in Forty Fort, PA. After inspected this old stove I found that the flue adapter was missing from it and hence I was unable to burn any coal. I did however, use the gas part of it for the last year or so. This year I decided to finally have a flue adapter made after unsuccessfully finding a match.
The first picture is what a flue adapter looks like on an original stove...I was going to but this whole stove to get just this one part, and keep other parts, and scrap the rest. But the trip to upstate NY was a bit too much and like I said..I decided to just have one made.
As some of you may know I bought an old Caloric Cookstove a few years back in near mint condition. It appeared that the coal appliance on this stove may have only been used a few times. The grates are in excellent condition and the ash pan still had ash in it. Inside the ash pan were old bank envelopes from the Forty Fort Bank in Forty Fort, PA. After inspected this old stove I found that the flue adapter was missing from it and hence I was unable to burn any coal. I did however, use the gas part of it for the last year or so. This year I decided to finally have a flue adapter made after unsuccessfully finding a match.
The first picture is what a flue adapter looks like on an original stove...I was going to but this whole stove to get just this one part, and keep other parts, and scrap the rest. But the trip to upstate NY was a bit too much and like I said..I decided to just have one made.
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- ntp71
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- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
I don't know. I am still trying to get a fire lit. I may need gaskets around the top plates.
- ntp71
- Member
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
Should there be gaskets around the rectangular and circular plates on this stove? When lighting the fire I get some smoke through these areas.
.
.
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- warminmn
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Probably didnt have any but that doesnt mean you cant add it, or seal it somehow. I used to have small round pieces of steel rod in mine to seal it some. Real nice fabrication job.
- Photog200
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Check to see if the stove is in oven mode...it will smoke when first lighting a fire if it is not in direct draft mode. That is assuming you cleaned all of the passages around and under the oven as well. These stoves did not have gaskets when they were made.ntp71 wrote:Should there be gaskets around the rectangular and circular plates on this stove? When lighting the fire I get some smoke through these areas.
.
Randy
- Sunny Boy
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- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
To add to Randy's.
Those round cover plates and the plate they sit in are made to be removed so that cooking pots/pans can sit on the round holes to be exposed directly to the firebox heat. Same for a larger container, such as a water boiler over the rectangular opening.
If your range has the oven also able to be heated by the fire box, looking at your sixth picture, it looks like your fabricated ducting on the back does not extend down as far is the original in the first picture. If I guess right, that duct should also be able to exhaust the hot gases from down around the outside of the oven walls when the range is put in to indirect mode (oven heat on).
With a lower duct not being hooked to the draft system, and with the internal direct/indirect dampers never sealing100%, if that is a lower opening to the oven's flue system, it could be letting cooler room air in and cause the stove to back draft.
Or, your chimney set up does not draft well and that is causing the back draft around the round covers.
Need more info about the internal layout of firebox. the passage ways inside the range, and pictures showing more of the back of the range.
What type and how high is the chimney ?
Paul
Those round cover plates and the plate they sit in are made to be removed so that cooking pots/pans can sit on the round holes to be exposed directly to the firebox heat. Same for a larger container, such as a water boiler over the rectangular opening.
If your range has the oven also able to be heated by the fire box, looking at your sixth picture, it looks like your fabricated ducting on the back does not extend down as far is the original in the first picture. If I guess right, that duct should also be able to exhaust the hot gases from down around the outside of the oven walls when the range is put in to indirect mode (oven heat on).
With a lower duct not being hooked to the draft system, and with the internal direct/indirect dampers never sealing100%, if that is a lower opening to the oven's flue system, it could be letting cooler room air in and cause the stove to back draft.
Or, your chimney set up does not draft well and that is causing the back draft around the round covers.
Need more info about the internal layout of firebox. the passage ways inside the range, and pictures showing more of the back of the range.
What type and how high is the chimney ?
Paul
- Sunny Boy
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- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Ok, looking closer I think I see the problem. What I thought was an uncovered lower duct is the opening to space under the range and the left rear leg.
In your first picture I see there is a damper lever arm sticking out in the upper part of the rear duct. It looks to be controlled by a rod going through the range to a push/pull handle on the front left side of the range.
If there is an upper and lower flue opening in the back of the range and your duct covers all of those holes, did you make some type of damper that can separate, what should be an upper hole leading to the firebox, from a lower hole, that should lead to ducts around the oven ?
If both are open to the chimney at the same time you may not be able to get a strong enough draft going to not have it back draft out the highest part of the range - the round cover plates.
Paul
In your first picture I see there is a damper lever arm sticking out in the upper part of the rear duct. It looks to be controlled by a rod going through the range to a push/pull handle on the front left side of the range.
If there is an upper and lower flue opening in the back of the range and your duct covers all of those holes, did you make some type of damper that can separate, what should be an upper hole leading to the firebox, from a lower hole, that should lead to ducts around the oven ?
If both are open to the chimney at the same time you may not be able to get a strong enough draft going to not have it back draft out the highest part of the range - the round cover plates.
Paul
- ntp71
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- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
Hi Paul,Sunny Boy wrote:Ok, looking closer I think I see the problem. What I thought was an uncovered lower duct is the opening to space under the range and the left rear leg.
In your first picture I see there is a damper lever arm sticking out in the upper part of the rear duct. It looks to be controlled by a rod going through the range to a push/pull handle on the front left side of the range.
If there is an upper and lower flue opening in the back of the range and your duct covers all of those holes, did you make some type of damper that can separate, what should be an upper hole leading to the firebox, from a lower hole, that should lead to ducts around the oven ?
If both are open to the chimney at the same time you may not be able to get a strong enough draft going to not have it back draft out the highest part of the range - the round cover plates.
Paul
First, the flue adapter I had made does go all the way down and is just as long as the original. The only difference is that it is wider than the original to accommodate a 6" oval pipe.
Second, the original damper is not on the stove so I added a manual damper to the stove pipe.
Thirdly, there is only one oval type hole leading out of the firebox. It would be near the top of the flue adapter.
Also, there is a an air intake knob to give the stove some draft. When I lit the stove last night I had this all the way open. I also left the ash pan door open, and the manual damper all the way open. I started with a bed of charcoal, and although it stayed lit for awhile I could not get a coal fire started. This was my first try at lighting a manual stove since the 80's when my Dad had a pot belly. I was pretty good at it back then, however now I seem lost..lol
Maybe I am missing something on this custom flue adapter. The stove with the original adapter might still be available and I am heading up to upstate NY this weekend...maybe I can see it....or buy it!..no cash
- Sunny Boy
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- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
I can see the oven gas valve. Maybe this model is just a gas oven only - with just the two round covers heated by coal ? I couldn't find anything about this model on the internet either.
A damper in the pipe (MPD) won't do the same job as what Randy posted about.
If your range can heat the oven with coal, there should be some type a oven damper which acts as a "diverter damper" . It should be somewhere between the firebox and the oven. It's used to either send flue gases directly to the stack (direct mode), or send them around the oven and then to the stack (indirect mode, or oven on mode).
Trying to get the range started in indirect mode is extremely tough, if not impossible with some set ups. And, it takes a good volume of hot fire to get coal going and you may not have enough charcoal burning hot enough to get the heat up to where it will light the coal and keep the draft hot and strong. Try getting a good charcoal fire going, say two-three bricketts deep and glowing. Then sprinkle just one layer of coal on. You should be able to see plenty of burning charcoal through the coal you've just added. Put too much coal on and it'll stall the fire. Add a little at a time and wait about five minutes for it to get burning before adding another thin layer.
Only when you have a good bed of burning coal, then the range can be switched to indirect mode, if it is so equipped.
More questions for you.
Just beyond the oval exit hole from the firebox, is there another passageway leading down toward the oven ?
Can you post pictures with all four doors open, plus pix of the inside of the firebox ? Any and all would help figure it out.
You may have had too much primary air with the ash door open before a strong draft was established. Try closing the ash door and just use whatever damper controls air to under the grates. Only open it about half way. Then see if there is less tendency for smoke to leak out around the covers.
If you can't by the adaptor, try to get clear pix of it inside and out as much as possible.
Paul
A damper in the pipe (MPD) won't do the same job as what Randy posted about.
If your range can heat the oven with coal, there should be some type a oven damper which acts as a "diverter damper" . It should be somewhere between the firebox and the oven. It's used to either send flue gases directly to the stack (direct mode), or send them around the oven and then to the stack (indirect mode, or oven on mode).
Trying to get the range started in indirect mode is extremely tough, if not impossible with some set ups. And, it takes a good volume of hot fire to get coal going and you may not have enough charcoal burning hot enough to get the heat up to where it will light the coal and keep the draft hot and strong. Try getting a good charcoal fire going, say two-three bricketts deep and glowing. Then sprinkle just one layer of coal on. You should be able to see plenty of burning charcoal through the coal you've just added. Put too much coal on and it'll stall the fire. Add a little at a time and wait about five minutes for it to get burning before adding another thin layer.
Only when you have a good bed of burning coal, then the range can be switched to indirect mode, if it is so equipped.
More questions for you.
Just beyond the oval exit hole from the firebox, is there another passageway leading down toward the oven ?
Can you post pictures with all four doors open, plus pix of the inside of the firebox ? Any and all would help figure it out.
You may have had too much primary air with the ash door open before a strong draft was established. Try closing the ash door and just use whatever damper controls air to under the grates. Only open it about half way. Then see if there is less tendency for smoke to leak out around the covers.
If you can't by the adaptor, try to get clear pix of it inside and out as much as possible.
Paul
- ntp71
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- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
Thanks Randy...I am not sure that there is an "Oven Mode"..there is nothing to distinguish that on the stove. I have no paperwork for this stove. I will look for passages around the stove...I do no recall seeing them, however I wasn't really looking and was only concerned with the coal portion of the stove.Photog200 wrote:Check to see if the stove is in oven mode...it will smoke when first lighting a fire if it is not in direct draft mode. That is assuming you cleaned all of the passages around and under the oven as well. These stoves did not have gaskets when they were made.ntp71 wrote:Should there be gaskets around the rectangular and circular plates on this stove? When lighting the fire I get some smoke through these areas.
.
Randy
- ntp71
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- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
[quote="Sunny Boy"
If your range can heat the oven with coal, there should be some type a oven damper which acts as a "diverter damper" . It should be somewhere between the firebox and the oven. It's used to either send flue gases directly to the stack (direct mode), or send them around the oven and then to the stack (indirect mode, or oven on mode).
[/quote]
There is a knob I can pull out. It seems its purpose is to let air into the firebox. I guess I really need to take a better look at this tonight. At that time I will be better prepared to answer your questions.
Thanks
Neal
If your range can heat the oven with coal, there should be some type a oven damper which acts as a "diverter damper" . It should be somewhere between the firebox and the oven. It's used to either send flue gases directly to the stack (direct mode), or send them around the oven and then to the stack (indirect mode, or oven on mode).
[/quote]
There is a knob I can pull out. It seems its purpose is to let air into the firebox. I guess I really need to take a better look at this tonight. At that time I will be better prepared to answer your questions.
Thanks
Neal
- Sunny Boy
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- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Ok.
While your at it, see if you can find out where those two rows of vents that are on cook top on either side of the rectangular plate lead to.
I wonder if those vents act like the Jenair down-draft exhaust stoves, in that it is using the chimney draft to pull cooking smoke down either side when that is used as a griddle ? If they are, is there an on/off control for them ?
Or, is that where the stove pulls it's primary air to feed the underside of the firebox ?
Paul
While your at it, see if you can find out where those two rows of vents that are on cook top on either side of the rectangular plate lead to.
I wonder if those vents act like the Jenair down-draft exhaust stoves, in that it is using the chimney draft to pull cooking smoke down either side when that is used as a griddle ? If they are, is there an on/off control for them ?
Or, is that where the stove pulls it's primary air to feed the underside of the firebox ?
Paul
- ntp71
- Member
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat. May. 17, 2008 9:14 am
- Location: Nanticoke, PA
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Reading Foundry Water Heater
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Old Mill Mini Stoker with Keystoker Feed System
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Gibraltar SCR
- Baseburners & Antiques: Caloric UltraMatic Coal-Gas Range
- Coal Size/Type: Chestnut
Ok, I am posting a few pics.
The lever is for Draft...either Open or Closed...
I do not see anywhere where heat would transfer to other that the air space around the firebox, and up the flue.
I currently have a fire lit, with the draft open and the MPD open all the way. I am getting some smoke through the plates, and a little up from the sides. I think the little bit of side smoke is just burning dust...ok seems like the dust stopped burning off. I closed the MPD a little bit ...should I leave damper open?
..
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.
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The lever is for Draft...either Open or Closed...
I do not see anywhere where heat would transfer to other that the air space around the firebox, and up the flue.
I currently have a fire lit, with the draft open and the MPD open all the way. I am getting some smoke through the plates, and a little up from the sides. I think the little bit of side smoke is just burning dust...ok seems like the dust stopped burning off. I closed the MPD a little bit ...should I leave damper open?
..
.
.
.
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- Sunny Boy
- Member
- Posts: 25706
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
- Location: Central NY
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
- Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
- Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace
Ok, so without any flues leading to spaces around the oven, it's safe to assume that this model only heats the oven by gas.
So that would rule out an oven damper in the wrong position, or malfunctioning.
Looking at the first picture in your last series, it looks like the draft opening on the left of what I assume is the shelf that the ash pan sits on. If so, that is your "primary" air inlet.
Always start with the primary air to control the fire. Try using that primary "draft" control to slowly close those openings into the ash pan area down. As you do, see what the smoke leakage does. You may have too much primary air coming in for the amount of draft going out. It may be over whelming the chimney, . . . then your house becomes another chimney too.
There could also be air leaks around that from ash pan door, or other areas, that are contributing to excessive primary air.
Paul
So that would rule out an oven damper in the wrong position, or malfunctioning.
Looking at the first picture in your last series, it looks like the draft opening on the left of what I assume is the shelf that the ash pan sits on. If so, that is your "primary" air inlet.
Always start with the primary air to control the fire. Try using that primary "draft" control to slowly close those openings into the ash pan area down. As you do, see what the smoke leakage does. You may have too much primary air coming in for the amount of draft going out. It may be over whelming the chimney, . . . then your house becomes another chimney too.
There could also be air leaks around that from ash pan door, or other areas, that are contributing to excessive primary air.
Paul