Yellow Flame Grate Experiment
- StokerDon
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- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
I am finished with the Yellow Flame to Tri-Burner Conversion. What Do You Think? experiment for this season. It works well as long as the night time temps are 30 degrees or above, then it struggles to keep up. Coal usage was about,18 pounds per day for DHW only, 50 pounds on one cold day and about 35 to 40 pounds per day through October heating the house and DHW.
This got me thinking about using the nice heavy duty Yellow Flame stoker but reducing the burn area to make it consume less coal. On the Yellow Flame grates it is recommended that you furnace cement closed 3 or 4 rows of holes closest to the hopper. This reduces the chance of combustion gases getting into the hopper. I decided to furnace cement 6 rows closest to the hopper and 3 rows of holes on the other end. The Yellow Flame grates have a LOT of BIG holes in them, just about end to end.
For this experiment, I will be using a second generation Yellow Flame stoker. The second gen is a bit different that the first gen and the third gen. Because of this, it was a little tricky getting it in my first gen boiler.
I did manage to get it stuffed in there. It was a little chalenging to get the covers on the back sealed.
I fired it up late yesterday. I will have to play with it to get the feed, air and timer set right.
This should be another fun experiment and I'm taking you guys along for the ride.
I's been running for about20 hours now. Current settings
Feed rate= 1 (lowest)
Air= just about all the way open
Timer= 1 minute every 15 minutes
Aquastat= 150/170 10 degree dif
Draft= -.02 at idle, baro starts opening at -.05
I will be keeping track of settings and coal usage on this thread.
I just filled it with 6 buckets, about 210 pounds. I like having the big hopper back! Hopefuly it lasts a few days.
We are off and running!
-Don
This got me thinking about using the nice heavy duty Yellow Flame stoker but reducing the burn area to make it consume less coal. On the Yellow Flame grates it is recommended that you furnace cement closed 3 or 4 rows of holes closest to the hopper. This reduces the chance of combustion gases getting into the hopper. I decided to furnace cement 6 rows closest to the hopper and 3 rows of holes on the other end. The Yellow Flame grates have a LOT of BIG holes in them, just about end to end.
For this experiment, I will be using a second generation Yellow Flame stoker. The second gen is a bit different that the first gen and the third gen. Because of this, it was a little tricky getting it in my first gen boiler.
I did manage to get it stuffed in there. It was a little chalenging to get the covers on the back sealed.
I fired it up late yesterday. I will have to play with it to get the feed, air and timer set right.
This should be another fun experiment and I'm taking you guys along for the ride.
I's been running for about20 hours now. Current settings
Feed rate= 1 (lowest)
Air= just about all the way open
Timer= 1 minute every 15 minutes
Aquastat= 150/170 10 degree dif
Draft= -.02 at idle, baro starts opening at -.05
I will be keeping track of settings and coal usage on this thread.
I just filled it with 6 buckets, about 210 pounds. I like having the big hopper back! Hopefuly it lasts a few days.
We are off and running!
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
This experiment is off to a great start. Right after I made the last posting I went out to kill some of the millions of leaves around my house, walking through the garage I noticed the fire was out! I was running a low feed rate, so I wonder if that caused it? Timer is 1 minute every 15 minutes so, I don't think that was it. I re-lit it and set the feed rate to 2 (second lowest). I am now waiting to see if the fire shrinks to the point of going out. If it does, I will have to go to a 10 minute cycle.
This morning when I was tring to set it at the lowest feed rate, I noticed the drive wheel on this second gen stoker only has 4 feed rate setting holes. The lowest feed rate is missing. I swapped in one with 6 holes. My third gen stoker has 6 holes also.
So now we have changed one setting.
Feed rate= 2 (second lowest)
I better go out and see if the fire is still going.
-Don
This morning when I was tring to set it at the lowest feed rate, I noticed the drive wheel on this second gen stoker only has 4 feed rate setting holes. The lowest feed rate is missing. I swapped in one with 6 holes. My third gen stoker has 6 holes also.
So now we have changed one setting.
Feed rate= 2 (second lowest)
I better go out and see if the fire is still going.
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
I chickened out. After ldling for 2 hours or so, it looked like the fire had shrunk to the point of almost going out between timer cycles.
Timer= 10 minute cycle
-Don
Timer= 10 minute cycle
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Due to the very warm temps today I bumped up the percentage on the timer from 8% to 10%.
This timer is nice. It's a percentage cycle timer, this gives you a lot of fine tuning options. It is a little harder to figure out how many minutes ON it is sometimes. Now it's 10%, 10 minutes, I'm pretty sure thats gona work out to 1 minute ON.
I talked to the nice folks at Keystoker today. I ordered the continous blower kit that goes on the back of the combustion blower. Since it's going on a Yellow Flame they almost had to charge me extra. Once I let them know that I did have a Keystoker at one point they let me slide. He had to go pull one out of stock to measure it. We needed to be sure it would fit over the Yellow Flame blower housing. It turns out the Keystoker blower housing is 4 1/2" wide and the Yellow Flame is 4 5/8" wide. Close enough! It will squeeze on there nice and tight. It should be here sometime this week.
Here is a link to a thread about installing this blower.
Upgrading Older Keystoker Boiler With a Secondary Blower
I changed one setting today.
Timer= 10 minutes at 10% (changed from 8%)
-Don
This timer is nice. It's a percentage cycle timer, this gives you a lot of fine tuning options. It is a little harder to figure out how many minutes ON it is sometimes. Now it's 10%, 10 minutes, I'm pretty sure thats gona work out to 1 minute ON.
I talked to the nice folks at Keystoker today. I ordered the continous blower kit that goes on the back of the combustion blower. Since it's going on a Yellow Flame they almost had to charge me extra. Once I let them know that I did have a Keystoker at one point they let me slide. He had to go pull one out of stock to measure it. We needed to be sure it would fit over the Yellow Flame blower housing. It turns out the Keystoker blower housing is 4 1/2" wide and the Yellow Flame is 4 5/8" wide. Close enough! It will squeeze on there nice and tight. It should be here sometime this week.
Here is a link to a thread about installing this blower.
Upgrading Older Keystoker Boiler With a Secondary Blower
I changed one setting today.
Timer= 10 minutes at 10% (changed from 8%)
-Don
- McGiever
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- Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
- Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
- Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
- Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar
There is a "cheat sheet" you can print out that tells at a glance what the equilant time is to a percentage. It's a available from a vendor site for download.
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The cycle time knob (left) sets the total time of the cycle. The Percentage knob (right) set the percentage of the cycle time that the timer is on. Example cycle time of 10 minutes with 10% would give you a 1 minute on time with 9 minutes off. 20% 2 min on 8 off and so on.
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
I have the cheat sheet and I could figure it out on a calculator but, in the heat of battle, sometimes you don't think strait.
I got my Keystoker blower today. Wow, that was fast, I ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure when I will put it on. I should run this set up for a week or so to get some data on it before the combustion blower Mod. But, you know how it is when you get a new toy!
This is what comes in the kit.
It will be tight, but I think I can bang it on there!
The first order of buisness was to take off the Yellow Flame data plate. I need to figure out a good place to re-mount it.
No setting changes today. Tonight, cold weather rolls in!
-Don
I got my Keystoker blower today. Wow, that was fast, I ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure when I will put it on. I should run this set up for a week or so to get some data on it before the combustion blower Mod. But, you know how it is when you get a new toy!
This is what comes in the kit.
It will be tight, but I think I can bang it on there!
The first order of buisness was to take off the Yellow Flame data plate. I need to figure out a good place to re-mount it.
No setting changes today. Tonight, cold weather rolls in!
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
It's cold now! Only going up to about 40 tomorrow.
I just did a 155 pound fill up. That's about 50 pounds per day. 5 to 15 pound per day more than the Tri-Burner.
I came out this morning to go to work and lucky for me I noticed the arem that drives to stoker back and forth hanging down! I have been leaving the bolt hand tight to make it quick and easy to make feed rate adjustments, I guess it backed itself out.
-Don
I just did a 155 pound fill up. That's about 50 pounds per day. 5 to 15 pound per day more than the Tri-Burner.
I came out this morning to go to work and lucky for me I noticed the arem that drives to stoker back and forth hanging down! I have been leaving the bolt hand tight to make it quick and easy to make feed rate adjustments, I guess it backed itself out.
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Nice cold weather now so I changed the timer to;
Timer= 15 cycle at 8% (72 seconds) ON
-Don
Timer= 15 cycle at 8% (72 seconds) ON
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
I may have coupler failure. When I installed this second generation stoker on Sunday, it made a little ratteling noise. I thought it was the blower cover on the motor side hitting the edge of the coupler, so I shimmed the cover out a bit with washers.
I came home from work yesterday and it was making that noise on the up stroke, but louder. This morning it is making that noise whenever the stoker is running. I put my finger on the gearbox end of the coupler and rocked it back and forth. There is a lot of play between the gearbox and the motor. Coupler failure?
More later,
-Don
I came home from work yesterday and it was making that noise on the up stroke, but louder. This morning it is making that noise whenever the stoker is running. I put my finger on the gearbox end of the coupler and rocked it back and forth. There is a lot of play between the gearbox and the motor. Coupler failure?
More later,
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Yes, the coupler was the problem. It was starting to come apart where the drive ears on the blower engauge it.
Lucky I bought a new one at Mark's Supply when I was up there a few months ago. The new coupler is a little different than the original, it doesn't use the drive ears. It connects to the motor shaft with a set screw just like the transmission end.
Because the drive ears are not used, they need to be bent out of the way. I bent them over with a screw driver and smashed them flat with a hammer.
When I put it back together, no more noise!
-Don
Lucky I bought a new one at Mark's Supply when I was up there a few months ago. The new coupler is a little different than the original, it doesn't use the drive ears. It connects to the motor shaft with a set screw just like the transmission end.
Because the drive ears are not used, they need to be bent out of the way. I bent them over with a screw driver and smashed them flat with a hammer.
When I put it back together, no more noise!
-Don
Last edited by StokerDon on Sat. Nov. 15, 2014 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
While I had it apart, I also installed the new Keystoker constant combustion blower. We will see how well this works.
First I cut a square hole in the back of the blower housing.
Did a test fitting and drilled and tapped 4, 1/4-20 holes.
Since a Keystoker has a different conbustion air inlet than the Yellow Flame I had to make a small piece to cover the cut out on one side. I just used a piece of stove pipe and siliconed it on there.
Banged it back on with lots of sillicon to seal it up. Put the bolts in.
And then, installed the blower.
The last thing to do was to install the ID plate.
And there it is, all ready to fire up!
I just loaded it up with about 155 pounds. The last 155 pounds only lasted 2 days, 77.5 pounds per day.
I have the Keystoker blower at half open to start with. No other changes today.
-Don
First I cut a square hole in the back of the blower housing.
Did a test fitting and drilled and tapped 4, 1/4-20 holes.
Since a Keystoker has a different conbustion air inlet than the Yellow Flame I had to make a small piece to cover the cut out on one side. I just used a piece of stove pipe and siliconed it on there.
Banged it back on with lots of sillicon to seal it up. Put the bolts in.
And then, installed the blower.
The last thing to do was to install the ID plate.
And there it is, all ready to fire up!
I just loaded it up with about 155 pounds. The last 155 pounds only lasted 2 days, 77.5 pounds per day.
I have the Keystoker blower at half open to start with. No other changes today.
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Yesterday, I got the itch to fire up my Harman handfired furnace. It is hooked to the plenum that the Yellow Flame's heat exchanger is in. In fact, the blower on the back of the Harman is the same blower the Yellow Flame uses.
The Harman SF3500 is a BIG furnace. Way bigger than I need for my house so, I bricked it down from 6 grates to 3 grates. So basicly now it's like a Harman MK3 with a hot air jacket and a big blower. The grates are the same size.
I start it with, a thin bed of coal.
Some junk that needs to be burned.
Some split down logs. and I put 1 or 2 small logs on top.
And light it up!
Add more coal when the wood burns down a bit. Sorry, I have not been able to get a good photo of coal burning in my SF3500.
This thing heats my house to the point of opening window-stats! And it does it using a lot less coal than the Yellow Flame uses. The Yellow Flame is also heating the garage and DHW though.
What does this have to do with the Yellow Flame Grate Experiment you ask?
The Yellow Flame will be OFF house duty for a few days. It will only be heating DHW and through radiation, the garage. I will try to see how much coal it uses heating DHW and compare it to the Tri-Burner., If I can run it long enough.
-Don
The Harman SF3500 is a BIG furnace. Way bigger than I need for my house so, I bricked it down from 6 grates to 3 grates. So basicly now it's like a Harman MK3 with a hot air jacket and a big blower. The grates are the same size.
I start it with, a thin bed of coal.
Some junk that needs to be burned.
Some split down logs. and I put 1 or 2 small logs on top.
And light it up!
Add more coal when the wood burns down a bit. Sorry, I have not been able to get a good photo of coal burning in my SF3500.
This thing heats my house to the point of opening window-stats! And it does it using a lot less coal than the Yellow Flame uses. The Yellow Flame is also heating the garage and DHW though.
What does this have to do with the Yellow Flame Grate Experiment you ask?
The Yellow Flame will be OFF house duty for a few days. It will only be heating DHW and through radiation, the garage. I will try to see how much coal it uses heating DHW and compare it to the Tri-Burner., If I can run it long enough.
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
I just did a 155 pound fill up. 3 days to go through it so a little over 50 pounds per day. Since Sunday afternoon, the house had been running on the handfired furnace. So, that means for more than 2 days the Yellow Flame was only heating DHW and keeping itself warm out in the garage.
-Don
-Don
- StokerDon
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
- Location: PA, Southern York County!
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
- Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
- Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Re-loaded with about 150 pounds this evening. Thats 4 days to go through 150 pounds, Thats 37.5 pounds per day, heating DHW and maintaining temp in a 55 degree garage. Not bad, thats only a little more than the Tri-Burner would use, I think.
Here is a photo comparisson of the handfired Harman and Yellow Flame ashes. The handfired ashes are light and fluffy. The stoker ashes are a bit darked and heavier.
Handfired ashes.
Stoker ashes.
I will be shutting down the Harman tomorrow because of warm temps coming in.
Current settings;
Feed rate= 2 (Second lowest)
Air= Closed down to about 1/3
Keystoker continuous blower= about half way opened.
Timer= 15 minute cycle, 8%, 72 seconds ON
Aquastat= 150/170 10 degree dif
Draft= -.02 at idle, baro starts opening at -.05
-Don
Here is a photo comparisson of the handfired Harman and Yellow Flame ashes. The handfired ashes are light and fluffy. The stoker ashes are a bit darked and heavier.
Handfired ashes.
Stoker ashes.
I will be shutting down the Harman tomorrow because of warm temps coming in.
Current settings;
Feed rate= 2 (Second lowest)
Air= Closed down to about 1/3
Keystoker continuous blower= about half way opened.
Timer= 15 minute cycle, 8%, 72 seconds ON
Aquastat= 150/170 10 degree dif
Draft= -.02 at idle, baro starts opening at -.05
-Don