Coal Usage and Timers

 
PatT15
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Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
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Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Thu. Nov. 20, 2014 8:11 am

Protrucker wrote:
PatT15 wrote:The feed is not adjustable and is set at 18lbs per hr and the air is set good with almost no unburned coal in the ash. The draft is good with a baro and while the stack temp is hot I have not checked the actual temp. The boiler is in my basement and is well insulated with a metal jacket covering it. It is burning well with no over fire pressure.
PatT15 wrote:At 18lbs per hr this thing is running 8 hrs a day. I'm going to try some different thermostat wiring and see if that helps. I want it to be more like cold start rather than maintaining high limit temp. I know I have heard of a timer that lets the unit run for a min or two every 30min so the fire does not go out. Can someone tell me what that is and maybe a part number.
I'm confused by your statements. :?

You say that the feed rate is set at 18 lbs per hr & is not adjustable......
Running 24 hrs a day, that would use 432 lbs a day.

You also say that it is running 8 hrs a day, but you're interested in adding a timer.
It sounds to me like you already have some sort of a timer?

I'm not real experienced with the controls, so let me ask a few questions.....
Is that feed rate of 18 lbs per hr only the feed rate when the thermostat is calling for heat?
Is your statement of, "running 8 hrs a day" just your guestimate of run time or is it an actual set run time?

I hope that I don't appear to ignorant about this! :oops: ;)
The amount of coal I used over a 24 hr period was 144 lbs, The unit is set for 18lbs per hour of run time, that computes to it must have run 8hrs over the coarse of a 24 hr period. I have no timer on it yet, it is just on and off to maintain set high temp.
I want to make it operate so that it runs only, when one of the 5 thermostats calls for heat, but I'm concerned I will need a timer to keep the fire burning. However I may not need it cause I have seen it go 8hrs without coming on and fire still be glowing, in warmer climates.
The house is warm and doesn't need any heat, yet every 20 minutes that thing is down there running for 20 minutes it seems. It runs to much, thats what I want to try and correct.


 
PatT15
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Posts: 44
Joined: Sat. Jan. 11, 2014 6:52 pm
Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: National recently converted to Hard coal stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 9:14 pm

I think maybe I need to explain what I want to do with my system a little better, because I know that you guys can help me achieve this, you just don't understand what I'm asking. Mostly because I'm probably not explaining it the way I need to.
Since my house is so warm now that I have sealed every air leak and added a pile of insulation everywhere including 1" tuff r insulation board behind new ruff cut vertical wood siding, I'm looking to reduce standby operation of my stoker and my oil boiler.
I have 5 zones controlled with 5 pumps, 5 flow control valves, 5 relays and 5 thermostats. Right now I have a single aquastat that is set for 180 degrees to turn the stoker on and off to maintain boiler temp.
When there is a thermo that calls for heat the pump comes on and draws the temp down on the boiler then the stoker comes on and heats it back up.
What I want to do is make it so that the stoker comes on the minute that a thermo calls for heat but doesn't go beyond A high limit. I feel that this would allow me to keep lower stand by temps but gets me hotter water to the radiators quicker, thus saving me coal in the end.
Picture and oil boiler with a dom. coil, it comes packaged with one pump and a triple aqua. If that was used as packaged the high limit would be set a 200 and the low could be at say 130. The boiler would maintain that low setting, but when the thermo calls for heat the boiler starts right up and doesn't stop until the thermo is satisfied or the high limit has been reached.
Thats what I want, only I have 5 separate thermostats to make do this without one zone turning others on. Can anybody understand what I'm asking?
Sorry for the long post. Thanks.

 
Mikeeg02
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Post by Mikeeg02 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 10:36 pm

You can do what you want by adding some relays, but this would help you, and make things a little neater. This can be used for up to 6 zones, and one common boiler output. So if any one zone is calling for heat, the boiler output goes active. Without enabling the other zones.

http://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-sr506-4-switching-relay

 
PatT15
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Posts: 44
Joined: Sat. Jan. 11, 2014 6:52 pm
Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: National recently converted to Hard coal stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 10:42 pm

Mikeeg02 wrote:You can do what you want by adding some relays, but this would help you, and make things a little neater. This can be used for up to 6 zones, and one common boiler output. So if any one zone is calling for heat, the boiler output goes active. Without enabling the other zones.

http://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-sr506-4-switching-relay
Perfect thanks!
Is there a way for me to do it without that? Using the relays I have and ......well I don't know what.

 
Mikeeg02
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Post by Mikeeg02 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 10:48 pm

If you put a 24v cube relay on each zone, you could parallel the outputs and use them to drive the boiler. It's much cheaper, just not everyone is comfortable with doing that. Really isn't hard though.

Edit: connect the coil side of each relay to each zone. One coil to one zone. Parallel the output side, and run them to the boiler control. The output side cannot back feed to the coil side.

 
PatT15
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Posts: 44
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Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: National recently converted to Hard coal stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 10:58 pm

Mikeeg02 wrote:If you put a 24v cube relay on each zone, you could parallel the outputs and use them to drive the boiler. It's much cheaper, just not everyone is comfortable with doing that. Really isn't hard though.
I was not even thinking in that direction, but ya that works. What do ya think about directional diodes in the paralleled tt wires.
Wait a minute, My relays are honeywell R845A, with 2 unused terminals 5 and 6. They go to either a line voltage load or low voltage load, could they be used to go to the triple tt terminals?

 
Mikeeg02
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Post by Mikeeg02 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 11:10 pm

I just looked at the diagram for the 845, looks like it has two outputs, for switching up to line voltage. If your 5 and 6 terminals are not in use, it looks like you could just parallel them to your boiler control. Then if any one zone called for heat it would fire the boiler. No extra relays or logic should be required.

Diodes are used for rectifying on ac voltage. ( making DC voltage ) And all your 24v thermostat controls are typically 24VAC.


 
PatT15
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Posts: 44
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Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: National recently converted to Hard coal stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 11:13 pm

Mikeeg02 wrote:I just looked at the diagram for the 845, looks like it has two outputs, for switching up to line voltage. If your 5 and 6 terminals are not in use, it looks like you could just parallel them to your boiler control. Then if any one zone called for heat it would fire the boiler. No extra relays or logic should be required.

Diodes are used for rectifying on ac voltage. ( making DC voltage ) And all your 24v thermostat controls are typically 24VAC.
Thanks for the hep!! :D :D

 
Mikeeg02
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Location: Milroy, PA
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Post by Mikeeg02 » Fri. Nov. 21, 2014 11:18 pm

One last thing. Being that I haven't actually used one of those relays you have before, you may double check with a meter and be certain that the two output are electrically isolated, so as to not send line voltage to the thermostat control on the boiler. Based off the drawing I would say they are isolated. But I just want to be safe.

 
PatT15
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
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Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Sat. Nov. 22, 2014 8:51 am

Mikeeg02 wrote:One last thing. Being that I haven't actually used one of those relays you have before, you may double check with a meter and be certain that the two output are electrically isolated, so as to not send line voltage to the thermostat control on the boiler. Based off the drawing I would say they are isolated. But I just want to be safe.
That was my thoughts also, good looking out. :)

 
PatT15
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
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Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Sat. Nov. 22, 2014 5:20 pm

Ive been off right now and working in the basement so Ive been keeping a close eye and ear on it and this thing is running a lot, burning 3-36lb buckets a day and the house is not calling for heat only but once a day.
The garage however is calling for it quite a bit. How do you guys feel about the hanging heaters with fans on them? I have them in the garage and they are what is really putting a hurting on my boiler temp. Those things must be terrible inefficient. I may take them down and put cast iron radiators out there too. Those unit heaters would work really well as a dump zone.

 
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Scottscoaled
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Post by Scottscoaled » Sat. Nov. 22, 2014 6:38 pm

PatT15, Do yourself a favor and get a Hydralevel 3250 Aquastat. It will do everything you need it to do. It will give you somewhere to wire all those terminal 5 and 6's to. I have a question. Your saying that you are running a Van Wert 400 stoker. It is running at 18 lbs per hour. Wouldn't that be a Van Wert 600 feed rate? What size gears and pulleys are you running? A 400 running 10 pounds per hour would be using around 110 K btu's. What is the rating of your 4 section? You could be just blowing the heat out of the chimney.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Nov. 22, 2014 6:44 pm

Scottscoaled wrote:What is the rating of your 4 section? You could be just blowing the heat out of the chimney.
I suspect that is the case. 150 lbs per day into a 2200 sq. ft house is tough to do in this weather unless a few windows are open.

 
PatT15
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Posts: 44
Joined: Sat. Jan. 11, 2014 6:52 pm
Location: Morrisdale Pa.
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van wert 400 stoker inside National 200 boiler
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: National recently converted to Hard coal stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Oil and electric

Post by PatT15 » Sun. Nov. 23, 2014 11:40 am

Scottscoaled wrote:PatT15, Do yourself a favor and get a Hydralevel 3250 Aquastat. It will do everything you need it to do. It will give you somewhere to wire all those terminal 5 and 6's to. I have a question. Your saying that you are running a Van Wert 400 stoker. It is running at 18 lbs per hour. Wouldn't that be a Van Wert 600 feed rate? What size gears and pulleys are you running? A 400 running 10 pounds per hour would be using around 110 K btu's. What is the rating of your 4 section? You could be just blowing the heat out of the chimney.
Well it is a 13" ring and the sprockets are 10 and 21, while the motor pulley is 3.5" and the transmission pulley is 3". I was thinking that it was set up for 18lbs per hr but my chart is showing me 12lbs per hr.
The boiler ratings are stoker fired @ 16lbs/hr 640sf of water, gas fired 195,000 btu/hr, and oil fired 1.45 gal/hr.
I have added some fire bricks in the heat exchanger to slow the escape off hot gasses and I have a manual damper in the flue pipe that I keep almost closed. Stack temp is 264 degrees at the back of the boiler and in the 90s after the baro and before the thimble. Draft is at .04 on the meter.
At this point I think that I am underfiring the boiler?? Would increasing the firing rate use less coal or am I thinking in the wrong direction?
Also, my garage heat accidentally got shut off the other night and was off for 20hrs or so and I burnt less than 2 buckets of coal that day. I think those unit heaters cool the boiler to quickly.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Sun. Nov. 23, 2014 7:07 pm

PatT15 wrote: I have added some fire bricks in the heat exchanger to slow the escape off hot gasses and I have a manual damper in the flue pipe that I keep almost closed. Stack temp is 264 degrees at the back of the boiler and in the 90s after the baro and before the thimble. Draft is at .04 on the meter.
At this point I think that I am underfiring the boiler?? Would increasing the firing rate use less coal or am I thinking in the wrong direction?
Also, my garage heat accidentally got shut off the other night and was off for 20hrs or so and I burnt less than 2 buckets of coal that day. I think those unit heaters cool the boiler to quickly.
I would think of firebricks as being counterproductive. Anything that blocks the flow of combustion gases over heat exchange surfaces is going to slow the transfer of BTU's into the boiler water.

Is that draft reading from the combustion chamber with the unit running?

It sounds like it is the load associated with heating the garage, and not the unit heaters, that is the issue there. As long as there isn't unnecessary heat loss from the distribution piping, the unit heaters are just doing the job they've been asked to do.

Mike


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