Draft Help

 
turbotom
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Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Retort penisular no214

Post by turbotom » Mon. Nov. 24, 2014 12:37 pm

nortcan, that looks like a fabulous idea! did you just mig weld those gasket brackets in? or braise? ill do that for sure, totally could with the ash pan door and the front loading door. pretty bummed my mica is all deformed and funny looking after just one fire :x

 
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Sunny Boy
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Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
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Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Nov. 24, 2014 12:38 pm

turbotom wrote:I stated that I was burning dried red elm fire wood in an earlier post. I am pretty certain that my ash door leak is the source of most of my problem and my chimney pulls a strong draft. (7" double wall insulated) I may add a second flue pipe damper. I don't have a nanometer setup yet, and don't have a thermometer yet. I do have smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors and fire extinguishers though.
Like Pancho said, coal is different. Because it doesn't burn as quickly, it will give you much more control then wood ever will.

Also, the check damper is there primarily for burning wood to slow down the strong draft that burning wood makes. If you try using the check damper, you may find you don't need the second MPD. When the flame tips shorten a bit and seem to get more relaxed, you'll know the check damper is working.

A thermometer on the stack will help you not only know what it's doing but it will give numbers that will help us help you. A manometer gives even more useful and accurate numbers for adjusting the stove's dampers.

Paul

 
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nortcan
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Post by nortcan » Mon. Nov. 24, 2014 12:50 pm

turbotom wrote:nortcan, that looks like a fabulous idea! did you just mig weld those gasket brackets in? or braise? ill do that for sure, totally could with the ash pan door and the front loading door. pretty bummed my mica is all deformed and funny looking after just one fire :x
Just mig weld, when the weldeding is done, just cover the part with some heat resistant insulator to slow down the cooling .
The best way to control a fire rate is to be able to control the air entering inside of the stove. The new wood stoves are ait tight and don't need any damper or baro...
But a thermometer is important on the stove and one other on the stove pipe.

 
turbotom
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Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Retort penisular no214

Post by turbotom » Tue. Nov. 25, 2014 12:25 am

Alright, feeling a bit stupid. But this stove is what prolly 100-120 years old? Anyways there was no gaskets anywhere on this beast when I tore it down, only cement/gooey stuff in the joints. Well......tonight I removed the ash pan door to inspect it for fabrication/resealing/whatever.... The bottom edge of the door where I had my leak has a groove in it. I glued in some fire rope and PRESTO! Problem solved. I now have a nice calm fire that I can actually damp all the way out. And yes I have the check damper open 1/2 way now. Loving my stove. Will be picking up some anthracite and bituminous coal this weekend I'll start a new thread with pics and results. Thanks everyone for your help.

 
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Post by titleist1 » Tue. Nov. 25, 2014 6:58 am

Good job TT, glad you found the issue and were able to solve it!

No reason to feel stupid, like you said it is over 100 years old and you are reverse engineering it as you go through the restoration. It's a learning process and you should feel good that you were able to diagnose it (with help from some friends on here) and correct it and bring the stove back to life into safe operation! You got it corrected fairly quickly, I think. :)

Now....on to the next adjustment because you know there WILL be another learning experience during the next firing cycle. ;) Now that you have your air supply under control it will probably just be in damper settings, ash clearing, reloading strategy, etc. but that's what makes it interesting and rewarding.


 
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Pancho
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Post by Pancho » Tue. Nov. 25, 2014 7:05 am

Good deal....gotta love easy fixes.

I don't know where you are located but if you are East of Michigan, it's about to get REAL windy for ya. Get to become good buds with your check damper. It's an awesome control to have.

 
turbotom
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Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Retort penisular no214

Post by turbotom » Tue. Nov. 25, 2014 9:44 am

Thanks again everyone! One happy guy here. My house is warmer than it ever was with the natty gas furnace.

 
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swattley01
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Alaska Gnome 40
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Coal Size/Type: nut / rice
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Post by swattley01 » Wed. Nov. 26, 2014 7:22 pm

i have a very simular stove it is a vale oak cylinder stove and I had the same problem, I had my stove restored and it did the same thing when I set it up, I see you have maybe the same straight up flue pipe, how many feet is that to the open and are there any bends, I had the same problem with my ash door the coals would burn like crazy and same with the wood, back then they rely on metal to metal tight fit on that door, maybe you have an large draft from your straight flue pipe, I just installed a barometric damper above the manual flue shut off, it is 18 inches above the stove and wow did that slow the stove down to the point the coal even went out on me. this barometric damper although I not mastered it has been the one thing that has finally got my stove to burn 10 hours straight over night.

 
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swattley01
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Alaska Gnome 40
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Post by swattley01 » Wed. Nov. 26, 2014 7:37 pm

one other thing I did is I purchased 3/8 stove rope gasket and tried to reseal the door, now the door was never meant to have a gasket but there was a ridge in the cast that I could lay the rope gasket in, I feel it helped alot but I was still frustrated at obvious leaks up through the bottom of the fire, I still think the barometric damper is something to try but maybe send pic of your ash door open, show both sides, there might be a place to cement stove gasket in, there are many shapes and size of this stuff, I taped mine in place with small pieces of gorilla brand duct tape, this stuff is amazing how it withstand the heat. and super adhesive.
by the way it is a nice stove I would like to see more pics.

 
turbotom
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Post by turbotom » Wed. Nov. 26, 2014 11:55 pm

There was a groove/channel in the bottom of the ash door I used gasket cement and glued in some fire rope, seems to be a big help all though even with no wind, I'm still running the check damper 1/2 open and the flue damper 90% closed. I get about 4-5 hours burn time with wood. My chimney is 7" hart and cooley brand from the ceiling up thru the roof. I have 6" single wall stove pipe off the stove and it has two 90 elbows in it 20" below the ceiling. Been thinking about adding a second manual damper right below the 6"-7" adapter. Been strictly on wood so far. Planning on buying a couple hundred lbs of nut anthracite and some stoker size bituminous this weekend. I also wanna add a little silicone to the shaker door sealing area as I smooshed some aluminum foil in it tonight and that slowed the fire a little more. Slowly but surely it's getting better. Still love this thing. My natty gas furnace hasn't run all week. Coolest my house has gotten was 59 degrees today after I got home from a 10 hour work day :)

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swattley01
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Alaska Gnome 40
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Coal Size/Type: nut / rice
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Post by swattley01 » Thu. Nov. 27, 2014 1:03 am

do you know what a barometric damper is, it will be a T that you put above the manual damper, it has a flap that will open when you have a lot of draft going up the pipe, I set mine so it is opening all time, I can see it open as the wind blows out side, it stopped the hard pull from below the fire try it if you know how to work with stove pipe, the hard part is only cutting the straight pipe down to length so it looks clean, I do mine with a sheet metal cutting wheel.
go on google and type in barometric damper in coal stove, many recommend it for most coal stoves. I read it should be 18 inches aboue the stove, mine works great and I burned coal for 10 hour, helps slow the wood fire down too. do you still have the coal greats in the bottom? the wood fires take a solid great to help collect a bed of ash. remember one other thing when burn wood, I bet you wood burns vertical, this makes the wood flame and burn faster, I am trying to cut sections to burn wood laying down like my modern wood stove in my home, I feel it should make a big difference when burning wood, but if you have the coal grate and can control the draft that stove was made to burn coal, becarful the first time burning coal, if you cant get the coal under control it can run away and get very hot, mine scared me to death the first time and I thought it was going to burn the house down.

 
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warminmn
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Post by warminmn » Thu. Nov. 27, 2014 8:36 am

I wouldnt replace it now, but in a year or two if you replace the indoor stove pipe, get rid of the elbows and put in a couple 45 degree pieces. Reason being that ash and soot will accumulate in that spot and no way to clean it without taking it apart. if it were 45's you could hit it with a rubber hammer and the stuff will fall into your stove for cleaning. Or you could put a cleanout T where the elbow furthest from the stove is so you can open it and clean the pipe in that area.

Keep a pail of sand or ashes nearby in case it goes nuclear on you so you can put it out. Sand would be less messy.

A baro damper may very well slow the fire down as mentioned. Every situation is different. Some use/like them and some dont. I'd lean towards it helping you if you still have a runaway fire. Hard to tell without trying it. They have ones you can install right onto your existing pipe with a strap and you cut a hole, or you can use a T pipe as mentioned. They install above the manual damper. 2 manual dampers might work too. Ive never tried that but a few here have done it. It would be quick to install for sure.

Swattley, its not considered a great idea to use a baro with wood. if you get a chimney fire it turns the fire into an inferno, supplying a 6 inch hole of oxygen. Most cover the baro with tin foil when burning wood. Good idea on the cutting wheel. they sure beat a hacksaw and are cleaner like you said.

 
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Photog200
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Post by Photog200 » Thu. Nov. 27, 2014 10:23 am

warminmn wrote:I wouldnt replace it now, but in a year or two if you replace the indoor stove pipe, get rid of the elbows and put in a couple 45 degree pieces. Reason being that ash and soot will accumulate in that spot and no way to clean it without taking it apart. if it were 45's you could hit it with a rubber hammer and the stuff will fall into your stove for cleaning. Or you could put a cleanout T where the elbow furthest from the stove is so you can open it and clean the pipe in that area.

Keep a pail of sand or ashes nearby in case it goes nuclear on you so you can put it out. Sand would be less messy.

A baro damper may very well slow the fire down as mentioned. Every situation is different. Some use/like them and some dont. I'd lean towards it helping you if you still have a runaway fire. Hard to tell without trying it. They have ones you can install right onto your existing pipe with a strap and you cut a hole, or you can use a T pipe as mentioned. They install above the manual damper. 2 manual dampers might work too. Ive never tried that but a few here have done it. It would be quick to install for sure.

Swattley, its not considered a great idea to use a baro with wood. if you get a chimney fire it turns the fire into an inferno, supplying a 6 inch hole of oxygen. Most cover the baro with tin foil when burning wood. Good idea on the cutting wheel. they sure beat a hacksaw and are cleaner like you said.
I would second the two 45's instead of two 90's. One for the afore mentioned in ash accumulation, and second for less reduction in draft. Everywhere you put a 90, it will cut down on draft. Sounds like you don't have a problem with draft though. :D

Randy

 
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nortcan
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Post by nortcan » Thu. Nov. 27, 2014 11:46 am

To get a fire burning, you must have air, to be able to control a burning fire, you must be able to control the primary air volume.
All what is located lower than the fire pot must be as air tight as possible. In fact you are supposed to be able to choke a fire if closing the primary air damper. But metal on metal joint is difficult to be airtight.
As already said, an anthracite fire is very different than a wood fire. An anthr fire doesn't need a lot of air to keep burning 12 Hrs +.
When burning anthr, the primary air damper is just a hair opened, the MPD is about 45*/+/-...so no need for air leaks around the lower section of the stove. Re-check all joints, sometime a leak is hard to find, so making an overlap cement or H T silicone on the original seals can help.
2 or 3 days burning nut anthracite will probably slowdown the fire , more or less ash over the grate will help to control the burning rate, so before making too many changes on the installation, try burning anthracite. Just my opinion :roll:
Good luck.

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