New Keystoker K-4 Problems

clupus wrote:With temps in the 32F to 35F range I'm using 60 pounds in 24 hours.

Thank you.

Windyhill 4.2: I'm burning anthracite rice coal.

The Heatmor 200 Outdoor Furnace is rated at 200,000 BTU's. The KAA-4 is rated at roughly half of that. But to reach 100,000 BTU's the KAA-4 must burn about 10 lbs. of anthracite per hour. That is 240 lbs. per day. If the OP is presently only burning 60 lbs. per day, then his KAA-4 still has a lots of unused reserve BTU's that it can deliver. It appears to currently be running at only about 25% of capacity.

Anthracite rice coal? that looks like wood pellets,must be for something else.Thanks,clupus . So the flue size... Is it the 6" & is that the correct size for this unit ? If that is right then the coal feed is too slow ?

clupus wrote:With temps in the 32F to 35F range I'm using 60 pounds in 24 hours.

And you are sure it runs ALL THE TIME?

If so, sonething must be out of whack with the feed mechanism.

The bag to the right of the K4 is peanuts for the bird feeder.

The chimney piping that we used is the same size as the flue coming out of the K4.

I can't say that it runs all the time as I'm not there all the time. Every time I was near it, it was running. What's so frustrating is that it holds exactly 125F on the boiler thermometer. The fire is perfect and today, after I used the oil furnace to get the house up to 72F, the K4 has held the temperature all day long. The outside temperature is around 32F right now. I'm having a electrician come in on Monday to go over all the wiring diagrams.

Hi clupus , Just so you know, and so you don't get confused, there are two model K-4's. Actually, the older K-4 is a Ka-4 (Discontinued). The newer K-4 is called the Kaa-4. They have complete different stokers. The newer Kaa-4 is what you have. That stoker is very similar to the Kaa-2 stoker, which is what I have. That's why I posted how I have to run my Kaa-2, which runs like a Swiss clock. More than likely, you'll probably have to run your Kaa-4 the same. From what I'm reading, you have too much lag time. In other words, your boiler is pulled down below the low aquastat setting faster than the coal being pushed on the grate can ignite, and recover. This causes the circulator to shut down till boiler temps come back up. Mean while, the water in the lines cool, and the short cycle repeats itself again. You'll never heat your house running the boiler like that. You need to reduce the lag time. You reduce the lag time by adjusting the size of the idle fire, which is done by adding pins to the timer. A bigger idle fire ignites the fresh coal on the grate quicker, reducing lag (re-coup) time. That being said, the idle fire needs fresh coal on the grate to ignite. If you don't have enough fresh coal on the grate to ignite, then you have a feed problem. These problems are not necessarily problems, they are adjustments. You need to find the balance between stoker feed adjustment, and size of idle fire. You need enough coal on the grate, and a big enough idle fire to ignite it quicker. Once you find that happy medium, the triple Aquastat will take over, pushing coal continuously, in order to produce heat BEFORE dropping below low temp setting, which of course, shuts the circulator down. When the circulator shuts down, water in the lines cool. When the water in the lines cool, you're starting all over again. Remember, the heat produced by a bigger idle fire is not wasted in a boiler, as a boiler stores heat. On the flip side, once the thermostat is satisfied, you don't want too big of fire on the grate. Too big of fire on the grate will cause over shoot, triggering the high limit aquastat. This means you have to reduce stoker feed. For fine tuning stoker feed, only adjust one turn to a time. Give it an hour between adjustments. Have some kind of wall thermostat control hooked to TT.

oliver power, I will try to explain a triple aquastat to you as it was explained to me on my boiler install thread. The high limit, typically set on 200* is ONLY a safety in case the low limit fails (typical of the recommended set-up) the low limit if set at 180* is the temp that the boiler will shut down,the typical set-up would be with a 10* differential so it would fire up when the water temp drops to 170*,when temp reaches 180* it would then shut off.Yes the low limit can be turned down to 160*,that will be the new high temp with re-fire at 150*. Clupus has his circulator running constantly & even with it only pumping at 1 gpm it lowered the water temp,so there is an issue with fuel/air not some issue with the circulator pumping too much. Yes I do understand as it was explained to me that putting a jumper between the TT terminals would then shift the operation to the high limit which would be stupid because then there would be no upper limit for safety if the upper limit failed.This is how the operation of the triple aquastat was explained to me,it's how I set mine & it works fantastic.

If the controls work properly and the boiler has enough nuts for the job, the exact method of controlling the temperature setpoint is irrelevant.

In this case it sounds like the aquastat is getting a faulty reading, or the stoker is not feeding nearly enough coal.

coalkirk wrote:Could you post another closer picture of the piping on the top of the boiler? It looks like a bypass is piped in but completely closed. The bypass allows the return water to be tempered and keeps the boiler temp from being knocked down too far.

Bingo! Also, it looks like he has the pump plugged into constant power, not C-1 & C2. He's pulling down the boiler.

oilman,how in the name of common sense can a pump set on 1 gpm pull down a correctly fed,correctly fired boiler ?? Yes,of course he has the circulator plugged in for constant running,some heating systems make sense to operate this way. He is not losing any more heat to the ozone layer this way as the pipes all pass thru heated areas. With a constantly circulating system there is no real need for a bypass as there is no cold surprise waiting to attack the boiler.He is not pulling down the boiler,his boiler is a total wimp with its feed & air settings,plain & simple.

windyhill4.2 wrote:oliver power, I will try to explain a triple aquastat to you as it was explained to me on my boiler install thread. The high limit, typically set on 200* is ONLY a safety in case the low limit fails (typical of the recommended set-up) the low limit if set at 180* is the temp that the boiler will shut down,the typical set-up would be with a 10* differential so it would fire up when the water temp drops to 170*,when temp reaches 180* it would then shut off.Yes the low limit can be turned down to 160*,that will be the new high temp with re-fire at 150*. Clupus has his circulator running constantly & even with it only pumping at 1 gpm it lowered the water temp,so there is an issue with fuel/air not some issue with the circulator pumping too much. Yes I do understand as it was explained to me that putting a jumper between the TT terminals would then shift the operation to the high limit which would be stupid because then there would be no upper limit for safety if the upper limit failed.This is how the operation of the triple aquastat was explained to me,it's how I set mine & it works fantastic.

OK Windyhill, No more beer for you.... Keystoker's own directions/recommendations say 160LO - 180HIGH. No Typical 180 - 200 in my Keystoker directions. And that's what we're talking about here is a Keystoker boiler. The Kaa-2 has to be run as I describe due to it's small reserve. In comparison (Boiler size to square footage), I 'm quite sure original poster is going to have to run his Kaa-4 the same way. The low setting on the triple aquastat is not anything to do with safety that I know of. It's to do with letting the boiler catch up before circulator kicks on. Orininal poster's circulator shuts down due to boiler being drawn down below tripple aquastat low setting. The high limit stops the stoker. The high limit safety aquastat is separate, and triggers the dump zone. I believe my high limit safty aquastat is set at 220*. And that's exactly how my Kaa-2 operates. I could not ask for a better performing little boiler. If the original poster reduces lag time, his boiler will not drop below low limit setting. The stoker will have built a big enough fire to overcome the steady drop in boiler temp before it reaches the low limit. The circulator continues to circulate heat throughout. At this point, the stoker would be running flat out until it reaches high limit of tripple aquastat. He'll have to find that sweet spot, which consist of the right amount of coal on the grate, and size of idle fire to get the fresh coal cranking. The bigger idle fire also produces more heat, slowing down the drop in boiler temp. But first he's got to wrap his mind around the theory. Once he does, it won't take long to fine tune. Assuming proper install, if his boiler never catches up (Or maintains thermostat set point during coldest days of winter) while running flat out, he needs a bigger boiler, or as Sting says, help from another heat source. I said nothing about a jumper between TT terminals. I recommended a thermostat. Oliiver

oliver power wrote:

windyhill4.2 wrote:oliver power, I will try to explain a triple aquastat to you as it was explained to me on my boiler install thread. The high limit, typically set on 200* is ONLY a safety in case the low limit fails (typical of the recommended set-up) the low limit if set at 180* is the temp that the boiler will shut down,the typical set-up would be with a 10* differential so it would fire up when the water temp drops to 170*,when temp reaches 180* it would then shut off.Yes the low limit can be turned down to 160*,that will be the new high temp with re-fire at 150*. Clupus has his circulator running constantly & even with it only pumping at 1 gpm it lowered the water temp,so there is an issue with fuel/air not some issue with the circulator pumping too much. Yes I do understand as it was explained to me that putting a jumper between the TT terminals would then shift the operation to the high limit which would be stupid because then there would be no upper limit for safety if the upper limit failed.This is how the operation of the triple aquastat was explained to me,it's how I set mine & it works fantastic.

OK Windyhill, No more beer for you.... Keystoker's own directions/recommendations say 160LO - 180HIGH. No Typical 180 - 200 in my Keystoker directions. And that's what we're talking about here is a Keystoker boiler. The Kaa-2 has to be run as I describe due to it's small reserve. In comparison (Boiler size to square footage), I 'm quite sure original poster is going to have to run his Kaa-4 the same way. The low setting on the triple aquastat is not anything to do with safety that I know of. It's to do with letting the boiler catch up before circulator kicks on. Orininal poster's circulator shuts down due to boiler being drawn down below tripple aquastat low setting. The high limit stops the stoker. The high limit safety aquastat is separate, and triggers the dump zone. I believe my high limit safty aquastat is set at 220*. And that's exactly how my Kaa-2 operates. I could not ask for a better performing little boiler. If the original poster reduces lag time, his boiler will not drop below low limit setting. The stoker will have built a big enough fire to overcome the steady drop in boiler temp before it reaches the low limit. The circulator continues to circulate heat throughout. At this point, the stoker would be running flat out until it reaches high limit of tripple aquastat. He'll have to find that sweet spot, which consist of the right amount of coal on the grate, and size of idle fire to get the fresh coal cranking. The bigger idle fire also produces more heat, slowing down the drop in boiler temp. But first he's got to wrap his mind around the theory. Once he does, it won't take long to fine tune. Assuming proper install, if his boiler never catches up (Or maintains thermostat set point during coldest days of winter) while running flat out, he needs a bigger boiler, or as Sting says, help from another heat source. I said nothing about a jumper between TT terminals. I recommended a thermostat. Oliiver

His circulator is not wired to the triple stat...PERIOD

His circulator is not wired to the triple stat...PERIOD[/b][/color][/quote] Yes McGiever, I see that as I just went back through the posts again. So, I'm having to go with feed adjustment, as you and windy hill had suggested. Sorry Windy Hill. You can have another beer now . Funny how we pick up something new when going back and reading again. All in fun.....