Building a New Era Base Burner

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Nov. 29, 2016 2:14 pm

Photog200 wrote:
KingCoal wrote:if considering the load door option, you would be looking to replicate the GW #6 type of pieces in some form or another.

on the other hand, if you were OK with drilling the barrel. you could make up flat "pucks" that match the barrel radius on the back side. install spin dampers to control inlet flow.

steve
I think I would rather drill through the barrel near the back of the stove. The problem with drilling holes like are in the Glenwoods is there is now way to close them off is there? In the shoulder months I burn some wood in the stove and would make that harder to control if too much over fire air. If I made a system like you mentioned with the control knob through the barrel, I think would work better. Old wood stoves like Fisher and Timberline had those kind of knobs, might be able to modify one of those.
Scratching chin & thinking
Randy
Simon posted a particular metric size machine screw that fits the holes in the Glenwood #6 & #8.

Any you drill, just pick a common tap size drill for like a 10-32 and you can thread it to put screws in if you find that there are too many,..... or remove them as the seasonal outdoor temps change the draft strength.

The Glenwoods don't seem to have any problem with those nine holes feeding the gas ring being open throughout the burn cycle. It also helps get more even secondary air for cleaner burning with wood fires (the #6 & #8 are listed as wood and coal stoves by Glenwood). And about a year ago, one #6 owner reported his stove does a good job of burning bit coal because of how that gas ring secondary air is distributed over the fire.

Since Wilson has been recasting the Glenwood gas rings, he has converted some Wings Best base heaters to use them. And if I remember correctly, Simon has converted his Wings Best also.

Paul


 
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Photog200
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Post by Photog200 » Tue. Nov. 29, 2016 2:42 pm

I probably should leave well enough alone as it works. But like you said paul, it would distribute the over fire air more evenly.
Randy

 
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Post by KingCoal » Fri. Dec. 30, 2016 4:16 pm

on a tweak I decided to check the zero adjustment on my Mano. today.

it was low a full .01 and could not be adjusted up to true zero. put in enough oil to make it correct and have some adjustment.

seems I've been running the stove between -.02 / -.01 most of the time and clears up some operational quirks that have been baffling me.

no big deal but now I understand how I had the CO detector go off a little while back.

stay tuned, I think i'm going to pursue a redesign of T.O.M. this coming yr. who'd a thought, right :lol: :lol:

 
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dlj
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Post by dlj » Sat. Dec. 31, 2016 7:15 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
The Glenwoods don't seem to have any problem with those nine holes feeding the gas ring being open throughout the burn cycle. It also helps get more even secondary air for cleaner burning with wood fires (the #6 & #8 are listed as wood and coal stoves by Glenwood). And about a year ago, one #6 owner reported his stove does a good job of burning bit coal because of how that gas ring secondary air is distributed over the fire.

Paul
Just my 2 cents on this - My Glenwood currently has the front feed holes closed off as the ceramic liner covers the inside where the holes used to feed the ring. That is now all ceramic liner. But, back when I ran the stove with the ring in place being fed by those holes, I always wanted to be able to control those holes as sometimes I felt that I would have preferred to have the stove not have those holes open. It's been long enough now that I don't remember the specifics of when I wanted to be able to control them, but I do recall that was something I always wanted to do back when I did run that ring... I haven't gotten around to taking my ceramic liner out and putting the ring back in, but when I do, I'm going to rig up a way to control that air feed....

dj

 
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Post by KingCoal » Sat. Dec. 31, 2016 8:06 pm

that is interesting indeed dlj,

as you know I just installed a preheated secondary tract that is only regulated by the current stage of a given burn between tendings.

my DSM 1400 had this type of secondary feed and proved some things to me that I didn't think possible. namely, when the fire is strong and pulling high draft the secondary tract provides alot of air over the fire. conversely, when the fire settles down and in for a 12 hr. burn it's hardly admitting any air at all.

i spoke of this in my " box stove to base burner" thread and I have re proved it with T.O.M. by getting smudges that emit quite alot of smoke and following the progress of a burn cycle.

i have to say that the Glenwood engineers KNEW what they were doing and there is no ill effects of using the features they included in their stoves contrary to what our imaginations try to convince us of.

i hope you will retry your secondaries someday.

steve

 
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wsherrick
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Post by wsherrick » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 3:07 pm

It should stand to reason that more draft pulls in more secondary, less draft pulls in less. ;)
All that needs to be done to design a self regulating secondary air option is to figure out exactly how much of a total orifice area you need and where exactly to direct the air not to mention how to heat it up before it hits the fire.
Not the easiest task to accomplish of course, but; you have learned so much through this whole thing not to mention validate everything I have been attacked for so viciously on this forum.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 3:32 pm

I agree with William that the gas ring feed holes will self adjust air feed to the draft strength being created by the firebed output.

In fact, stoves are not the only devices using that method of air control.

For almost 100 years, carburetors were designed to do the same thing to adjust the air/fuel ratios of the different fuel circuits within the carburetor depending on, and proportional to, engine load caused vacuum variations (called pressure drop by a fuel system engineer). Those air feed holes are called "air bleeds" and "emulsion tubes". They are fixed sized holes that restrict feed air intended to mix with the fuel to change the air/fuel ratio to match the engine power output more closely to driving conditions. Simple, reliable, and they are extremely affective.

It would be very easy on a #6 or #8 to "regulate" the gas ring air feed holes. Just place RH machine screws is some of those gas ring feed holes until you get the air volume you want. Then you can go to the next screw size larger and tap a thread into the holes needed, so as to more permanently hold the screws in place.

Paul


 
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Post by KingCoal » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 4:23 pm

William,

it's always a delight to see you active on the forum and a special priv. when it's in my threads. glad to know that you are enjoying some health and strength.

as you, I have been challenged with the notion that if there is unregulated over fire air available that draft will "certainly" satisfy itself thru that source rather than drag air all the way thru the primary system and up thru the fire bed.

this is of course, just not the case. although, there can be a case made in regard to even regulated
" excess secondary " washing heat out of the combustion chamber prematurely.

BUT, we have many good and even perfect examples of the original stoves among us to be examined in order to establish the ratios for copying and re-employing these systems.

it IS rocket science, but it's settled science and worthy of trust.

all the best to you for '17 my friend,
steve

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 5:13 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:I agree with William that the gas ring feed holes will self adjust air feed to the draft strength being created by the firebed output.

In fact, stoves are not the only devices using that method of air control.

For almost 100 years, carburetors were designed to do the same thing to adjust the air/fuel ratios of the different fuel circuits within the carburetor depending on, and proportional to, engine load caused vacuum variations (called pressure drop by a fuel system engineer). Those air feed holes are called "air bleeds" and "emulsion tubes". They are fixed sized holes that restrict feed air intended to mix with the fuel to change the air/fuel ratio to match the engine power output more closely to driving conditions. Simple, reliable, and they are extremely affective.

It would be very easy on a #6 or #8 to "regulate" the gas ring air feed holes. Just place RH machine screws is some of those gas ring feed holes until you get the air volume you want. Then you can go to the next screw size larger and tap a thread into the holes needed, so as to more permanently hold the screws in place.

bad example if you know the slightest info as to how a modern carb works between 7 to 11 different bleed circuits that all come into play depending on air demand.
Paul

 
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Post by joeq » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 6:58 pm

Sunny Boy wrote: For almost 100 years, carburetors were designed to do the same thing to adjust the air/fuel ratios of the different fuel circuits within the carburetor depending on, and proportional to, engine load caused vacuum variations (called pressure drop by a fuel system engineer). Those air feed holes are called "air bleeds" and "emulsion tubes". They are fixed sized holes that restrict feed air intended to mix with the fuel to change the air/fuel ratio to match the engine power output more closely to driving conditions. Simple, reliable, and they are extremely effective.
Paul
Damn,"I love it when you talk dirty" :lol:

 
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Sunny Boy
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Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 7:49 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:I agree with William that the gas ring feed holes will self adjust air feed to the draft strength being created by the firebed output.

In fact, stoves are not the only devices using that method of air control.

For almost 100 years, carburetors were designed to do the same thing to adjust the air/fuel ratios of the different fuel circuits within the carburetor depending on, and proportional to, engine load caused vacuum variations (called pressure drop by a fuel system engineer). Those air feed holes are called "air bleeds" and "emulsion tubes". They are fixed sized holes that restrict feed air intended to mix with the fuel to change the air/fuel ratio to match the engine power output more closely to driving conditions. Simple, reliable, and they are extremely affective.

It would be very easy on a #6 or #8 to "regulate" the gas ring air feed holes. Just place RH machine screws is some of those gas ring feed holes until you get the air volume you want. Then you can go to the next screw size larger and tap a thread into the holes needed, so as to more permanently hold the screws in place.

bad example if you know the slightest info as to how a modern carb works between 7 to 11 different bleed circuits that all come into play depending on air demand.
Paul
Actually it's a good example,.... if you don't try to over think it and you just take it as an example that stoves are not the only things to use the principal that air will flow through a hole (or holes in the case of the Glenwood gas rings), at different rates depending on the amount of pressure drop inside the stove. ;)

Paul

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 7:52 pm

joeq wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote: For almost 100 years, carburetors were designed to do the same thing to adjust the air/fuel ratios of the different fuel circuits within the carburetor depending on, and proportional to, engine load caused vacuum variations (called pressure drop by a fuel system engineer). Those air feed holes are called "air bleeds" and "emulsion tubes". They are fixed sized holes that restrict feed air intended to mix with the fuel to change the air/fuel ratio to match the engine power output more closely to driving conditions. Simple, reliable, and they are extremely effective.
Paul
Damn,"I love it when you talk dirty" :lol:
Then you'll love hearing about vacuum operated fuel pumps. :D

Paul

 
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Post by KingCoal » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 7:59 pm

OMG, and I thought the dumbest thing I had ever experienced was vac. windshield wipers. heck, even manual wipers with a cloth soaked in either works better.

 
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Post by joeq » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 8:05 pm

Dave. Bad example? How can you say that? Doug Roe, the inventor of the Q-jet couldn't have explained it any better. That's exactly the same premise all carburetors work on. More airflow through a venturi, more of a pressure drop, causes more fuel to flow. Same with the down tubes. A perfect comparison to more draft, signaling more secondary air to be pulled in. Clear as Boston harbor. :lol:
(TOTP...again today) :mad:

 
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Sunny Boy
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Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Jan. 02, 2017 8:11 pm

KingCoal wrote:OMG, and I thought the dumbest thing I had ever experienced was vac. windshield wipers. heck, even manual wipers with a cloth soaked in either works better.
Yeah,....... they suck ! :D

Paul


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