Grates and Breathing

steamshovel · Post by **steamshovel** » Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 6:38 am

joeq wrote:We all know the grates are the lungs of our stoves. And without air, our stoves morph from "space heaters", to "space eaters". So recently I've been pondering over the grate systems in our stoves.
One reason is because I , (once again), awoke less than 9 hours later, to a dull coal fire. The only variable from previous tendings, was the coalbed and firebox was a day older. Meaning a slight increase in ash had accumulated. The cleaning of the grates in my stove requires riddling and raking, and the more ash that can be removed, the less deposits will build-up to choke the breathing off.
The 513 has roughly 100 sq/in of grating to supply air to the coal bed, "plus", around the edges, the skirting runs the perimeter "above" the grating to supply more air. As time passes, even tho I riddle across the grates and under the serrations of the skirts or aprons, ash becomes lodged between the serrations, and is impossible to remove W/O shutting down the stove, and cleaning. And I'm sure this has a negative effect on breathing.
So this is my question. Why are there other stoves out there, such as the old BB, with a small round grate, that has a pot big enuff to hold 75lbs or more of coal, burn for 20 hrs or more, retain heat, yet the grating "has to be" choking down with ash. How can these small grates supply enuff air to maintain these extremely hot fires?

I think the real problem you have, is a mediocre chimney draft and chimney. if that had a strong draft it would pull the air through. or, it's low quality coal creating clinker. one thing they have really figured out with the new quality stoves is the grates. I've never had to clean grates to get air, just rake until some red coals begin to fall, refill with coal, and close it up, and set draft. maybe the draft had just fallen off causing a low fire condition ? that happens occasionally due to atmospheric conditions, usually when the barometer goes low. if you have a baro and mpd on the stove, that may cause it too. bleeding off draft with room air via the baro, will surely dampen the fire down. closing the mpd will do the same. both together can put a fire out because it robs what draft is left. the worst thing is a baro on a chimney that doesn't have good draft to begin with. there is a general misunderstanding that a baro helps draft, it does not- it bleeds draft off and reduces it.
the best fix there is set the main draft below fire to a hotter setting. if it's on a barely idling setting and the barometer drops due to weather, it will be on the verge of going out due to loss of draft.

Sunny Boy · Post by **Sunny Boy** » Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 7:07 am

Lightning wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Lee,
Not me.

When looking in through the ash door opening (called the "hearth" on a kitchen range) you can just see the tips of the bottom of row of triangular grate teeth in through the opening. The camera would have to be placed inside the range's ash pan area to see the grates in action,... and it's way too hot in there to leave it long enough for video.

Paul
You don't need to stick the camera in there.. use a mirror.

Lee,

That won't work either. As soon as the grates start dumping ash the mirror disappears in a cloud of ash dust.

To get a good vid of the grates chewing/dumping ash and clinkers, the hearth (ash door) would have to be open. Because of the shape of the ash drawer area and how the primary air is being drawn in, there'd be a large dust cloud pouring out of the ash drawer opening.

And filming through the primary damper openings won't work either. When there's a good night's worth of ash to drop, with that much ash buildup, the draft can't gain enough strength to prevent dust shooting out the slide damper openings if they are fully open doing the morning grate-rotate. Cough - cough - don't ask how I know that !

Let me think about the when and hows and see if I can get a vid without melting the camera, or fingers, or having to explain to the cook why the kitchen got covered in ash dust.

I'm quite certain she won't accept the excuse, "Lee told me to do it !".

Paul

wilsons woodstoves · Post by **wilsons woodstoves** » Wed. Jan. 14, 2015 10:24 am

Lightning wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Lee,
Not me.

When looking in through the ash door opening (called the "hearth" on a kitchen range) you can just see the tips of the bottom of row of triangular grate teeth in through the opening. The camera would have to be placed inside the range's ash pan area to see the grates in action,... and it's way too hot in there to leave it long enough for video.

Paul
You don't need to stick the camera in there.. use a mirror.

then you got the 10 year bad luck factor.....

Post by **Lightning** » Wed. Jan. 14, 2015 10:39 am

Sunny Boy wrote:That won't work either. As soon as the grates start dumping ash the mirror disappears in a cloud of ash dust.

Ahhh, ok.. I thought maybe you could lay the mirror down flat in front of the ash pan door opening and get a reflection from above at a 45 degree angle..

Like shown here with my make-up mirror.

Sunny Boy · Post by **Sunny Boy** » Wed. Jan. 14, 2015 11:09 am

Lee,
Here's some pix of the range's "hearth" and ash pan area.

As you can see, the base of the hearth protrudes out quite a ways from the opening, preventing looking up at the grates from underneath. At best you can just make out the tips of the lowest grate teeth.

Also, because of the hearth's "ash pit" shape, plus the hot air convection and draft air currents surrounding it, any attempt to dump ash while the "draft door" is open just directs the dust outward along the bottom of the hearth, then up into the rising hot air currents surrounding the door opening.

Shortly after that, the coughing and yelling starts !

Like I said, don't ask how I know.

Paul

Smokeyja · Post by **Smokeyja** » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 8:16 pm

I took a video of the Glenwood No. 6 grates shaking after 13 hours of burning. I think it is an ok angle but I will try to get an even better video in the future.

lobsterman · Post by **lobsterman** » Sat. Jan. 17, 2015 1:43 pm

Smokey-- nice video! Shows the control you get with short jerky strokes and you can see when it is time to stop from the orange glow. When the ash door is closed, you can do it by feel. With adequate draft the No. 6 will not go out without burning the fire-pot "fairly" clean if no shaking is done. This can be used to great advantage in warm periods: just keep heaping on coal as the ash builds up and slows the burn. Enough fine ash settles and falls under its own weight to keep sufficient air moving for a sustained slow burn. Often after a good hard burn starting with the fire pot coned up full and the glowing coals at a level below the top rim of the fire pot I may not shake at all and just cone up the coal to a heaping pile again for another burn cycle.

Smokeyja · Post by **Smokeyja** » Sat. Jan. 17, 2015 2:27 pm

lobsterman wrote:Smokey-- nice video! Shows the control you get with short jerky strokes and you can see when it is time to stop from the orange glow. When the ash door is closed, you can do it by feel. With adequate draft the No. 6 will not go out without burning the fire-pot "fairly" clean if no shaking is done. This can be used to great advantage in warm periods: just keep heaping on coal as the ash builds up and slows the burn. Enough fine ash settles and falls under its own weight to keep sufficient air moving for a sustained slow burn. Often after a good hard burn starting with the fire pot coned up full and the glowing coals at a level below the top rim of the fire pot I may not shake at all and just cone up the coal to a heaping pile again for another burn cycle.

Thanks! It took me a little while to really get the hang of the Glenwood 6 but after I figured out that it need minimal shaking it was a breeze . You are exactly right I just shake until I see the little sprinkles of orange . That way I burn as close to 100% of the coal as I can get. Over shaking this stove will cause good coal to drop. I am learning to do the same you think mentioned as well. If I don't want the temp to drop and wait for it to spring back up I will add coal without shaking down and wait for the blue ladies to establish a good flame and then shake later on which keeps the temps fairly steady with reload . Sometimes in the morning I don't have time to build it back up . I shake, push down and add more coal , wait for the blue ladies and set it into base heater with the MPD closed and it always goes to the same temp if I set the bottom dampers the same place. Its actually pretty amazing how well this stove controls the fire . There is no guessing with it anymore. It knows what to do when you set it where you want it!

I never shake without the door open except for this video. That ash likes to make its way out the door lol. sometimes I will open the dampers to see the flicker of orange but like you said after a while you can kinda get a feel for when you have shook it enough.

Post by **Lightning** » Sat. Jan. 17, 2015 3:16 pm

Yeah, thanks for the video post! I'm surprised how little shaking it needs, wow!

Sunny Boy · Post by **Sunny Boy** » Sat. Jan. 17, 2015 3:23 pm

The triangular grates dump so much ash, so affectively, that I can't have the primary slide dampers open fully on my range without getting some ash dust coming out ,..... unless it's in direct mode and the draft is up close to 1.0.

Reminds me of pictures I've seen of mountain rock slides !

Paul

Grates and Breathing

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