Cast in Place Concrete Liners

 
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Post by gardener » Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 2:56 pm

Does anyone vent through a cast in place concrete liner? impressions?

I found one mention of the liner on "Stove installation predicament" ( about5725.html ), but that was only passing references to the technology.

Does concrete deteriorate from coal exhaust like metal (ie. steel liners)?

In the brief time I searched on the technology there seems to be two main methods of pouring the flues, one uses a bell weight to form the flue and another uses an inflatable bladder. Curious if these technologies can be installed in an existing chimney where the flue jogs.

Supposedly the concrete mix used insulates more than structural concrete.


 
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Post by coaledsweat » Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 4:28 pm

I looked at this about 15-17 years ago. Yes they can do a jogged flue as mine is. First they break out all the tiles and then cast an insulating cement and then a thin ceramic based coating over that.... usually. The price then was $2800 and I'm sure it has gone up considerably. I don't recommend it unless your chimney is structurally deficient as it does strengthen the chimney. If draft is you problem, add height to your existing chimney. I doubt the insulation will give you an increase in draft as cost effiecient as increasing the height.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Tue. Jan. 13, 2015 5:54 pm

You mean like the Supaflu system ?

http://www.supaflu.com/

I checked into having it done to my fireplace chimney 22 years ago, when I bought this place. It was very expensive then - $1400.00, but yes, it is supposed to work in chimneys that deflect and/or have a jog, as long as they can get the correct sized rubber tube inflated through there.

Not sure about now, but back when I checked into it ,they said one of the main ingredients in the casting mix was volcanic lava, which was supposed to not only be a better insulation for retaining/insulating heat than most refractory and concrete mixes, it would also increased the life span because they said it would withstand acidic deposits better.

With six mouths to feed, and alot of other work this place needed, I never did follow up after that estimate. :roll:

Paul

 
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Post by gardener » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 9:28 am

coaledsweat wrote:First they break out all the tiles and then cast an insulating cement and then a thin ceramic based coating over that.... usually.
Any ideas why there is a second outer (mmm inner) coat of ceramic based coating?

I have read that mortar can be deteriorated by coal exhaust, wondering if concrete is at risk too.

Are there different grades of mortar?
... for example, is the mortar between clay flue tiles different than mortar between red brick?
Are there grades of concrete that are preferred for chimneys?

 
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Post by PJT » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 10:02 am

gardener wrote:
I have read that mortar can be deteriorated by coal exhaust, wondering if concrete is at risk too.

Are there different grades of mortar?
... for example, is the mortar between clay flue tiles different than mortar between red brick?
Are there grades of concrete that are preferred for chimneys?
Ive wondered the same thing Gardener...and just how it would be possible to replace the mortar between the joints of the 8" terra cotta flue pipes...without tearing down the chimney....

 
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 11:24 am

It is possible to repair the joints between tile liners without tear them all out.
But yes, you can not replace the mortar without tearing them all out.

 
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Post by whistlenut » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 11:29 am

Hint: It is about the same money for new as 're-lining'......and you KNOW what you have, then.
Pay me now, pay me later.....results may not bite you for years.....after everyone is dead and gone......but it won't be your problem, now will it?
Do it right, do it once, relax and sleep well.
Last edited by whistlenut on Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


 
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Post by gardener » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 12:37 pm

PJT wrote:Ive wondered the same thing Gardener...and just how it would be possible to replace the mortar between the joints of the 8" terra cotta flue pipes...without tearing down the chimney....
I don't know, but I do recall seeing some video one time of a mason repairing mortar between tiles using a tool that looked a little like a golfing putter that could have extensions screwed on between the applicator and handle in order to reach down.
My impression was they were refilling mortar that had fallen out between tiles...
McGiever wrote:It is possible to repair the joints between tile liners without tear them all out.
But yes, you can not replace the mortar without tearing them all out.
... which is what I think McGiever is referring to in the 'repair' versus 'replace'.

 
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Post by Keepaeyeonit » Thu. Jan. 15, 2015 4:29 pm

I don't know the cost of this but I'm sure It's pricy.
http://www.cecurechimney.com/heatshield-system.html
It looks like a good fix If thats what you want to do!

 
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Post by gardener » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 10:04 am

Keepaeyeonit wrote:http://www.cecurechimney.com/heatshield-system.html
It looks like a good fix If thats what you want to do!
Wow! That looks like a good service.

My flue is in good shape. Because I will need to remove part of the old vestal damper, I may need to remove some bricks like you had to; I will likely try a full reline with a 316Ti and try to preserve as best I can. If the liner deteriorates quickly I will switch to the rigid pipe to the first tile set (about 5 feet) like you are doing and insulate near the old damper. Rigid pipe would be cheaper, but I assume there would be better drafting from a full reline by maintaining the same vent diameter to the top.

Though with the jog in the flue, I still wonder whether a steel liner can shift successfully, but it is only 1 to 2 foot laterally for 4 to 4.5 feet vertically. You mentioned an 30 degree elbow or something like that, but I assumed that is with rigid pipe.

I'm just curious about the concrete cast in place reline, if concrete holds up against coal exhaust, and I plan to keep the coal insert for 30 years, might be worth it to not have to pull a liner our rigid pipe to look for deterioration, those inserts or heavy and I'm not getting any stronger.

 
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Post by Berlin » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 10:20 am

Why not put a free-standing stove in front of the fireplace and enter the chimney with a thimble?

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 11:25 am

gardener wrote:
Keepaeyeonit wrote:http://www.cecurechimney.com/heatshield-system.html
It looks like a good fix If thats what you want to do!
Wow! That looks like a good service.

My flue is in good shape. Because I will need to remove part of the old vestal damper, I may need to remove some bricks like you had to; I will likely try a full reline with a 316Ti and try to preserve as best I can. If the liner deteriorates quickly I will switch to the rigid pipe to the first tile set (about 5 feet) like you are doing and insulate near the old damper. Rigid pipe would be cheaper, but I assume there would be better drafting from a full reline by maintaining the same vent diameter to the top.

Though with the jog in the flue, I still wonder whether a steel liner can shift successfully, but it is only 1 to 2 foot laterally for 4 to 4.5 feet vertically. You mentioned an 30 degree elbow or something like that, but I assumed that is with rigid pipe.

I'm just curious about the concrete cast in place reline, if concrete holds up against coal exhaust, and I plan to keep the coal insert for 30 years, might be worth it to not have to pull a liner our rigid pipe to look for deterioration, those inserts or heavy and I'm not getting any stronger.
You are over thinking all this stuff. You don't need a stainless liner or chimney relining unless your existing chimney is seriously deficient. Save your time and money and find something else to worry about. The coal isn't going to eat your chimney or the cement holding it together.

 
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Post by gardener » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 11:32 am

Berlin wrote:Why not put a free-standing stove in front of the fireplace and enter the chimney with a thimble?
I would like that, but the hearth (elevated and shallow) is in the center of the house and a stove would have to sit out in front of the hearth and end up being in the way.

 
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 11:33 am

If coal ash is used to strengthen concrete then why would coal exhaust kill concrete ?

 
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Post by whistlenut » Fri. Jan. 16, 2015 12:08 pm

Acidic in that context.


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