Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:30 pm

I think alot of you know what my opinion is as to Iraq & I would just ask for you to consider what I am about to say here. It is merely my opinion, but one that I am as convinced about as perhaps you are of your opinion. I think alot of the division in our country over Iraq right now rests on two simple questions:

1. Is what's going on in Iraq right now mainly a civil war (between Iraqi Sunni's & Shiites) or is it a battle against our real enemy Al Quieda...AND..... how have you made your decision on which it is?
2. What percentage of attacks on our forces are being pepertrated by Al Quieda? (This administration is trying to convince us that close to 100% are.....I think just a small percentage really are)
(To answer these questions I ask you to quietly & honestly think about who have you listened too & who has real credability to answer thes questions )


My Opinion:

This administration stretched & cherry picked the intelligence they needed to get us into fighting a war which they wanted to fight from the first day they took office for unstated reasons. The 9/11 attack was just a convenient horror that got us in the mood to fight someone. At first they said the Iraq war was immediatly needed because they claimed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction & that he was close to building an atomic bomb which he would give to terrorists.
When those reasons turned out to be untrue, the stated reasons for the war morphed into a vague idea that we (The US) suddenly were moraly obligated to save the poor, downtrodden people of Iraq from a terrible tyrrant who was a threat to his neighbers & that it was worth US lives & billions of our dollars to accomplish this. (The Bush admin knew we US citizens would never have & should never have invaded a country for those reasons & that he was losing the American people's & Congress's support for what was now an occupation since all of our military goals had been met. (Saddam & his sons were dead & Iraq had held free a fair elctions)
Now they needed a knew excuse for us to stay in Iraq........Al Quieda!....Suddenly Al Quieda was who we were still fighting & who was/is killing our men & women with ambushes & IED's! It wasnt a civil war anymore....We were & are fighting Al Quieda!! Every ambush was suddenly Al Quieda. Every IED was suddenly Al Quieda. Every Iraqi our soldiers killed was suddenly Al Quieda........How do we know this?...Because Bush tells us so! (I know many of you will think that I am a conspiracy nut for thinking this but the irrefutable truth is that GW Bush controls all the Executive agencies & all the military....so if you are rellying on government assurances, you are trusting the unsubstantiated word of GW Bush again)
Some may ask: If you are right, why arent we hearing this from our left wing , liberal media? A fair question & one that I would answer by merely saying that our media is now a huge corporate giant, more concerned with keeping you tuned to their next commercial than in digging for the truth any more. Maybe in the 1960's the media was left leaning but now they lean simply towards the money & dont want to risk rocking the boat.

All I ask is that you do what Ronald Reagan used to recomend the next time anyone in the employ of this administration asks you to believe them: "Trust But Verify" (if it can't be independantly verified consider the past track record of the source)
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: spc On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:56 pm

Please watch & listen. These are dem's on Iraq, some are statements made before President Bush was in office.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:01 pm

I'm not trying to rehash if we ever should have gone into Iraq, that's water over the dam. My point is do we still belong there? (Maybe for another 100 years if you listen toi McCain)
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:05 pm

A lot more water is coming. The history books are full of examples of what happens when people won't stand up and fight for what is right.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:06 pm

I already adressed the reasons for staying there but I'll reiterate. You only have to look at history to get the answer as to why we should stay there. The Taliban is relatively small group of thugs that controlled Afghanistan prior to the US invasion not through the will of the people but through violence and intimidation. The roots of there rise to power go back to the invasion by the Russians ans subsequent help provided by the US to repel the invasion. Once the Russians left so did the US and the rest of the world that left them to do what what they wished. Ultimately this lead to 9/11.

Now I ask you this, do you really want a bunch of radical islamic thugs running rampant in a very industrialized nation with 30 million people with the oil to finance anything they want? This isn't Afghanistan where they are still living in mud huts but an educated and industrialized nation which at one point was the strongest military force in the Middle East besides possibly the Israelis.

Leaving now would be possibly the biggest blunder in history and would pale in comparison to the mistakes made in Afghanistan a few decades ago.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: spc On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:08 pm

Devil5052 wrote:I'm not trying to rehash if we ever should have gone into Iraq, that's water over the dam. My point is do we still belong there? (Maybe for another 100 years if you listen toi McCain)
So you wanted us to invade Iraq but don't want us to help rebuild Iraq? We've been in Germany for 64 years. Should we pull out of there too?
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:56 pm

spc wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:I'm not trying to rehash if we ever should have gone into Iraq, that's water over the dam. My point is do we still belong there? (Maybe for another 100 years if you listen toi McCain)
So you wanted us to invade Iraq but don't want us to help rebuild Iraq? We've been in Germany for 64 years. Should we pull out of there too?


No, I never felt we needed to invade Iraq. Our fight was/is with Al Quieda.....not a Bush family enemy. We need to rebuild this country, let GW & his oil buddies pay to rebuild Iraq, they broke it!. (so much for my temperate arguments!)
As far as Germany is concerned, how many GI's are shot/blown up on the streets of Berlin each month?
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:05 pm

Richard S. wrote:I already adressed the reasons for staying there but I'll reiterate. You only have to look at history to get the answer as to why we should stay there. The Taliban is relatively small group of thugs that controlled Afghanistan prior to the US invasion not through the will of the people but through violence and intimidation. The roots of there rise to power go back to the invasion by the Russians ans subsequent help provided by the US to repel the invasion. Once the Russians left so did the US and the rest of the world that left them to do what what they wished. Ultimately this lead to 9/11.

Now I ask you this, do you really want a bunch of radical islamic thugs running rampant in a very industrialized nation with 30 million people with the oil to finance anything they want? This isn't Afghanistan where they are still living in mud huts but an educated and industrialized nation which at one point was the strongest military force in the Middle East besides possibly the Israelis.




To answer your question, no I don't Richard. Which is why we never should have gone in there in the first place. Perhaps the best answer would be to bring Sadddam back to life, hand him back his thrown & say "Oops....Sorry......Here you go & sorry about the kids.'
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:08 pm

Devil5052 wrote:As far as Germany is concerned, how many GI's are shot/blown up on the streets of Berlin each month?


That's not a fair analogy, for it to be fair you would have to go back to after WW2 and even then since the German country was for all intents and purposes destroyed they had little choice but to accept the occupation, that or die of starvation.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:10 pm

Devil5052 wrote:
To answer your question, no I don't Richard. Which is why we never should have gone in there in the first place..'


It's water under the bridge, you can't turn back the hands of time. If we just up and leave that is exactly what is going to happen.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: spc On: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:24 pm

Senator Lieberman on the floor of the Senate today:

Mr. President, it's been only a year since General David Petraeus arrived in Baghdad and took command of American forces in Iraq. But in these brief 12 months, he and the American Coalition troops under his command have brought about a tectonic shift in Iraq that has altered the course of the war there, and with the future of at least two great nations--Iraq and the United States of America--and the lives of hundreds of millions of people in those two nations and so many others threatened by violent jihadist terrorists in the Middle East and beyond.

Mr. President, when the surge first began a year ago, many doubted that the violence then raging in Iraq could be brought under control. Even as American troops began implementing this bold new counterinsurgency strategy, some opponents of the war inside and outside of Congress declared that the war in Iraq was already lost, that the surge had already been tried and failed, and that it mattered more, frankly, that we get out of Iraq than that we succeed in Iraq. They could not have been more wrong.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:29 pm

Fine, Senator Joe. Now that the surge has worked, we can draw down our troops and turn the policing of Iraq over to Iraqis.

Maybe we don't have to leave altogether but right now we simply don't have the numbers to defend our interests elsewhere in the world. We've either got to draw down our forces in Iraq (OK, maybe not to zero) or we have to institute a draft. Because right now we simply haven't got enough policemen to be the world's policeman.

That's the real choice that's before us.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: spc On: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:46 pm

NATO needs to do more. Other countries need to help fight this war against these terrorist.
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: Devil505 On: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:07 pm

spc wrote:NATO needs to do more. Other countries need to help fight this war against these terrorist.


I agree about NATO but they wont as long as Bush/cheney are in power. Hell....The Brits even deserted us!
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Re: Appeal To Your Intelligence/Logic

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:21 pm

spc wrote:NATO needs to do more. Other countries need to help fight this war against these terrorist.


Maybe they will, if they actually think their voices are being heard in the process.

So, you're right, there's another choice: are we actually going to listen to our allies, or just make demands of them?

If yes, maybe a draft can be avoided, but that means we may have to yield a measure of control over what's decided. If no, back to the draft question.
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