Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:31 pm

stockingfull wrote:As I noted above, this is an urban-rural thing. Luzerne Co. has a population in the neighborhood of 315,000, so that's 7.9%. Is that supposed to be a lot? Are any of those permits for law enforcement?


That's just for concealed weapons permit it's certainly not for gun ownership. Gun ownership is probably at least 50%. I know that probably 90% of the people I know at least own one gun. I'm sure some of those permits are in the possession of law enforcement but most are going to be in the hands of your average citizen as that is the intention. Law enforcement officers to the best of my knowledge don't need one in the state of Pennsylvania.

And Luzerne's population is distributed over 891 sq. miles, for a population density of 354 persons/sq.mi. That's 97% lower than the pop density of Philly (11,000/sq.mi.), and only a quarter of the density of my home (suburban) county, Montgomery. It ain't rocket science that, where people are closer together, there's more, ahem, "friction."


Most of Luzerne County's population is centered in the Wyoming Valley, here's a map from Google. It's not Philly but it's certainly close, I can spit from my house and hit at least one neighbors house and that's no exaggeration.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&g ... 5&t=k&z=12
Richard S.
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: pvolcko On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:50 am

On CCW in general:
From: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the "Sunshine State" would become the "Gunshine State." Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide. (Source: Kleck, Gary Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 370. Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) If the rest of the country behaved as Florida's permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.


From: Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996
In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit.


From: "More Guns, Less Violent Crime", Professor John R. Lott, Jr., The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 1996
Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes.


I'll grant that drawing a causal relationship between reduced crime stats and shall issue CCW laws would be wrong, at least on this evidence alone. However this does lend strong support to the conclusion that liberalized CC issuance does not result in aggregate increased gun violence or that there is statistically significant increase in criminal gun use by CCW holders. Indeed, the evidence is strong enough to conclude that legal CCW holders, even under liberalized CCW laws, are drastically less likely to commit violent gun crime than others of the population.

Changing topics, I read the NYT article that was linked to earlier in the thread. I found nothing overtly concerning about the cases mentioned in the article.

1) Prostitute kills a guy who threatened to kill her and then himself: She managed to get his gun away from him and shot the guy. This is how the article describes it. How did she get it away from him? Was there a struggle? Was she in a position to evade (yes, read into that all you want)? I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the person originally threatened.

2) Cabbie kills drunkard: He had to stun gun the guy out of the cab because he wouldn't leave. The guy pulls an object (cabbie says he thought it was a knife) and make a move toward him, cabbie fires a shot or two toward the mans feet and yet he continued to move toward the cabbie, cabbie shoots and kills him. The suggestion is made that the cabbie could have called in on the radio. Perhaps so, but that is only in relation to his trying to get the man out of the cab in the first place, after he removed the man he doesn't seem to have been in a position to do so. Should he have called it in from the get go? Assuming the man wasn't belligerent, yeah probably, but then again we don't know what kind of neighborhood this was, what time it was (coming from a bar probably safe to assume it was night, perhaps late), or how the occupant was behaving besides refusing to leave the cab. It was also suggested that the cabbie could have evaded by getting in his cab. We have no idea if his car door was open, if he was blocked by the rear door, how close the guy was to the cabbie, or of the pace and timing of the events. Without more info it is hard to say. In this case, however, the guy was tried, but not convicted for his actions (9-3 deadlock leaning against him). The quoted line from the jury foreman doesn't instill much confidence in me that they were serious about protecting the accused's self-defense rights (“He could have just gotten in his cab and left. The thing could have been avoided, and a man’s life would have been saved.”), but without knowing more about the case I won't pass judgement either way.

3) Ex cop shoots neighbor (not dead) after heated argument about garbage: It is not as simple as "the neighbor shot over the number of garbage bags he put out". I note that this was an ex cop that shot the guy. While some are eager to hold the police in the lowest regard, as a general rule they are a good bunch. They also tend to know the law when it comes to gun use and have training in offensive and defensive gun use under high stress situations. The case basically boils down to he said, he said. Neighbor knocks on cop's door, argument ensues, cop alleges neighbor put foot in door while trying to close it and that neighbor tried to make forced entry into the house, ex cop shoots neighbor in gut. That's the extent of what the article says. If that is indeed all there is and it is supported by the evidence (scuff marks in the door jamb? blood evidence?) then that is a reasonable use of force.

The act of making (or being in the immediate process of making) unauthorized entry into a home is in and of itself threatening to the occupant(s) and, should the occupant(s) feel their lives are in danger, are entitled to use deadly force (in my ever so humble opinion, that is not the law in my state of NY). I would make an attempt to call police and warn the intruder off and inform him of having a gun (if I did have one) if at all possible, but the intruder takes on the risk of lethal force being applied to him by being in the house and is not entitled to that warning. Regardless of the level of actual threat the intruder poses or what their state of mind is, all levels of risk are justly perceived by the occupants in the heat of the moment. The fact that laws exist that would hold a person in such a situation to instantaneously assume a dispassionate, rational, highly empathetic posture toward that intruder, to the point of requiring evasion, backing up "to the wall", warnings, assessment of threat level, etc. instead of acknowledging and accepting natural self-defense imperatives and human physiological responses when confronted with such an invasion and situation... it boggles the mind.

Lastly on this:
“They’re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,” said Paul A. Logli, president of the National District Attorneys Association.


Um... yeah. Of course we hold government to a higher standard of proof, both in prosecution of the law (innocent until proven guilty) and when it comes to explaining actions of police and other such agents. There may be room for argument around the edges of the "castle doctrine" law, but crying foul over citizens being held to a lower standard than the police is not a good line of such argument.
pvolcko
 

Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: Cyber36 On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:55 pm

Well said Bugsy! I'm a proud, responsible, gun-toting American. The ONLY way I'll give up MY guns is when they pry them away from my cold dead fingers. Right now, they're the ONLY thing keeping our lovely government from enslaving us I.M.H.O...................
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 pm

"What could possibly go wrong if everybody has a gun?"

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-could-possibly-go-wrong-if.html
stockingfull
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:18 pm

stockingfull wrote:"What could possibly go wrong if everybody has a gun?"

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-could-possibly-go-wrong-if.html


?? that's single incident that happened 15 years ago. It should be pointed out the man was acquited of manslaughter charges in that case, I won't judge him because I don't know the facts. From the NY times article linked to in that article it appears the person who was shot didn't understand English and was walking towards an armed man that was telling him to halt... if that's the facts well tough *censored*. Regardless of whether the he knew english or not the gun pointed at him should have given him a clue. :roll:
Richard S.
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:35 pm

Regardless of whether the he knew english or not the gun pointed at him should have given him a clue.


Couldn't agree more.

I sure don't understand Portugese, last time I had a gun in my face the holder of said gun was screaming in Portugese. Didn't have a clue what that official was saying but I had my face on the cobbles in seconds flat. Wonder if I should place this story in "Dumb things we done" thread?
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:56 pm

BugsyR wrote:
Regardless of whether the he knew english or not the gun pointed at him should have given him a clue.


Couldn't agree more.

I sure don't understand Portugese, last time I had a gun in my face the holder of said gun was screaming in Portugese. Didn't have a clue what that official was saying but I had my face on the cobbles in seconds flat. Wonder if I should place this story in "Dumb things we done" thread?


:verycool: Uh, it was a Halloween Party, boyz. A costume party. Even if you understand English, who's to say you drop on that command at a masquerade event? Especially if you're not acting in a lethally-threatening manner at the time.

But I'm beginning to get it here: nobody who ever fires a handgun is wrong. Right?
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:02 pm

stockingfull wrote: :verycool: Uh, it was a Halloween Party, boyz. A costume party. Even if you understand English, who's to say you drop on that command at a masquerade event?


That is incorrect they went to wrong house, the owner of the house had no idea what the intentions of the masked person was.
Richard S.
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:21 pm

Couldn't open the link to read the story...didn't know it was a party...

As for me and the cobbles...well...I was 2 blocks from the 'red light" district in Lisbon, Portugal, walking down the street...non-threatening...when a police vehicle pulls up and 2 suits jump out waving their guns...the only thing this "non-threatening" "non-portugese speaking" person understood was...9mm (at least that's what it appeared to be) pointing in the face...which meant...hide face from gun barrell using the cobble stone side walk.

international language...gun in face = put "face in the ground"
sometimes it can be interpretted as... gun in face = "wallet now" which if no ready defense available a proper response would be "here ya go". If criminal is nice to thank you at least give him some of the same respect and respond "you're welcome, have a nice day"
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:23 pm

Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote: :verycool: Uh, it was a Halloween Party, boyz. A costume party. Even if you understand English, who's to say you drop on that command at a masquerade event?


That is incorrect they went to wrong house, the owner of the house had no idea what the intentions of the masked person was.


Was it Halloween? Trick, treat, or KA-BOOM?
stockingfull
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:35 pm

But I'm beginning to get it here: nobody who ever fires a handgun is wrong. Right?


...Wrong...

From Foxnews.com....
Arthur Mann, 40, was convicted by a jury of murder, kidnapping, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and several firearms possession charges in the slaying of 22-year-old Clara Riddles.

A judge then sentenced Mann to life in prison without parole, prosecution spokeswoman Lyn Vaughn said.

Prosecutors said Mann confronted Riddles at her job at a hotel attached to the CNN Center and dragged her by her hair to an escalator. When she tried to resist, he shot her twice, prosecutors said.
BugsyR
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:58 pm

Unfortunatley I don't have a choice here in Maryland. But if you don't want to carry a gun, then carry a cop.
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: gaw On: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:26 am

We all have out own personal “Road to Damascus” moment in our life. For me it came last night three quarters of the way through a deep philosophical discussion with my friend Jack. It occurred to me that I have a couple of guns just laying around the house waiting to possibly commit some type of horrendous crime that could land me in a whole world of trouble.

Earlier in the evening I had a nice steak dinner and was overcome with guilt again. Granted it was a steak from Wally-World and had a few forklift scars and burn marks from a cattle prod but it was steak none the less. How can I eat steak when there are poor mothers in the inner cities unable to afford a bag of Doritos for their brood of bastards or even a twenty piece from the KFC? It was then that I saw the light and became enlightened.

I gathered the guns that were lying around just collecting dust waiting to shoot my wife’s boyfriend or some ignorant litterbug or wayward trespasser matting down my lawn into my pickup truck and headed downstream following the Schuylkill River until I found the city of brotherly love, Philadelphia. Ah yes, Philadelphia, PA, home of the most crooked politicians this side of the Hudson. Down I go, south on route 611, South Broad Street down past center city and then a few blocks west I go until I happened upon a couple of young unemployed aspiring alchemists turned street vendors selling their modern day snake oil in powdered form just trying to make ends meet. I showed them the guns and explained that if they hold on to them until the city has a gun buy back program they can turn them in for cash. Cash to feed their starving families! They were excited at my generosity and gladly accepted my offer as well as took my wallet in exchange for a small sample of their feel good powder. I tried the stuff on the way home and in deed I felt good, good about what I had done and just good about me.

So now I was on my way home and paranoia set in. Was I being followed? Was someone out to get me? I got rid of my guns! I am such a fool! Then another bit of divine intervention and inspiration. Just as the idea hit me I came upon a used car lot “Kopechne Motors”. I stop in and look around and what do I find but a 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88, one owner, a little old lady from Massachusetts who only drove it to church on Sundays. I jumped at the chance and bought it. Now I have the ultimate in self defense. If or when I am threatened I just lure the threatening person or persons into the Olds and drive to the first bridge over water I can find, drive off it and swim to shore. Works every time and if I can get a dumb friend or relative to admit to driving the Olds that night instead of me it will preserve my viability to run for the President of the United States of America in the future should America need me.

Life is good and so am I.
gaw
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:41 am

coalkirk wrote:Unfortunatley I don't have a choice here in Maryland. But if you don't want to carry a gun, then carry a cop.


I still have a license to carry but have not made the commitment to do so. For those of you that have never regularly carried a concealed weapon, it requires some work/dedication on your part:
1. They can get heavy/uncomfortable to wear all the time.
2. They limitt your choice of clothing.
3. They have a nasty habit of tearing your shirts (alot of guys that carried revolvers would wrap rubber bands around the hammer to protect their clothing)
4. You cant bring them into many places & therefore have to hide/lock them in your car.

I'm sure there are alot more problems I have forgotten about as it's been a while since I had to pack a gun every day, but it does require alot more "thought" then you realize. Then there is the problem that you have to decide that you will carry all the time, or there is really no point. (You know that the first time you don't have it is when you will be mugged/robbed & most criminals will not be kind enough to delay/postpone their attack until you have had a chance to run home to get your weapon)
Devil505
 
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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:26 pm

gaw wrote:We all have out own personal “Road to Damascus” moment in our life. For me it came last night three quarters of the way through a deep philosophical discussion with my friend Jack. It occurred to me that I have a couple of guns just laying around the house waiting to possibly commit some type of horrendous crime that could land me in a whole world of trouble.

Earlier in the evening I had a nice steak dinner and was overcome with guilt again. Granted it was a steak from Wally-World and had a few forklift scars and burn marks from a cattle prod but it was steak none the less. How can I eat steak when there are poor mothers in the inner cities unable to afford a bag of Doritos for their brood of bastards or even a twenty piece from the KFC? It was then that I saw the light and became enlightened.

I gathered the guns that were lying around just collecting dust waiting to shoot my wife’s boyfriend or some ignorant litterbug or wayward trespasser matting down my lawn into my pickup truck and headed downstream following the Schuylkill River until I found the city of brotherly love, Philadelphia. Ah yes, Philadelphia, PA, home of the most crooked politicians this side of the Hudson. Down I go, south on route 611, South Broad Street down past center city and then a few blocks west I go until I happened upon a couple of young unemployed aspiring alchemists turned street vendors selling their modern day snake oil in powdered form just trying to make ends meet. I showed them the guns and explained that if they hold on to them until the city has a gun buy back program they can turn them in for cash. Cash to feed their starving families! They were excited at my generosity and gladly accepted my offer as well as took my wallet in exchange for a small sample of their feel good powder. I tried the stuff on the way home and in deed I felt good, good about what I had done and just good about me.

So now I was on my way home and paranoia set in. Was I being followed? Was someone out to get me? I got rid of my guns! I am such a fool! Then another bit of divine intervention and inspiration. Just as the idea hit me I came upon a used car lot “Kopechne Motors”. I stop in and look around and what do I find but a 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88, one owner, a little old lady from Massachusetts who only drove it to church on Sundays. I jumped at the chance and bought it. Now I have the ultimate in self defense. If or when I am threatened I just lure the threatening person or persons into the Olds and drive to the first bridge over water I can find, drive off it and swim to shore. Works every time and if I can get a dumb friend or relative to admit to driving the Olds that night instead of me it will preserve my viability to run for the President of the United States of America in the future should America need me.

Life is good and so am I.


Delmont 88.... Ah, now how many people can remember that? :clap: (Well, outside of NE PA. ;) )

And don't forget, that car killed 2 people: Mary Jo and the old man!

But, like so many of Peggy Noonan's "novel" speeches for the Gipper, well-written prose alone does not a cogent argument make. Lessee, political car accidents for $500: Laura Welch T-bones and kills boyfriend in high school so she can marry drunkard trust fund kid and future president; speeding Republican Congressman and former 4-term Governor Bill Janklow mows down motorcyclist in SD; former Goldwater Girl and presidential candidate Hillary Rodham uses Dallas motorcade to slaughter Latino motorcycle cop escort because she's heard that Latinos are breaking for Obama... :roll:
stockingfull
 
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