Radiative Capacity of a Cylinder Stove

 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:25 am

Thank you Randy!!!!!!

I've seen another picture here of a cylinder stove that must have had an 8 foot barrel with the breech at the top. I think it was a civil war photograph.


 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25547
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:29 am

So, my kitchen range example doesn't work ? And, that if I were to reduce the range's heat radiating square area (which I can do easily with the flip of a damper lever) and send more heat up the chimney, then it will make the range more efficient at heating ?

My repeatable tests, measuring actual room and stove/stack temps, show exactly the reverse, with no change in how completely the coal burns. By changing the stove's heat radiating surface area, I can either warm my kitchen more, or warm my chimney more.

And my brother-in-law-to-be's Round Oak, with it's extension barrel, would heat his entire house more efficiently if the barrel extension were removed ? Then why did Round Oak, Glenwood, and other top of the line stove makers sell extension tops and back pipes if they might reduce a stove's ability to heat ?

Paul

 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:30 am

Paul,

What exactly is the 27/1 ratio defined as?

Thanks.

 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25547
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:32 am

Scott,

The gas burn-off should be taken care of by how you design a secondary air inlet and also how you load the stove. Tall or short, you know that if you load it wrong and don't provide some secondary air to get those blue ladies dancing, .... BOOM!

Paul

 
User avatar
D-frost
Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun. Dec. 08, 2013 7:10 am
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman MK ll
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Yukon Eagle I (multi-fuel oil, wood/coal)
Baseburners & Antiques: Herald 'fireside oak'
Coal Size/Type: nut/stove-Blaschak/Lehigh

Post by D-frost » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:32 am

Scalabro,
If I remember, Emery purchased a 'giant' oak, like 10 ft. tall, with a huge fire pot, from upstate N.Y. I don't know the manufacturer, but a call would give you something to start with. Also, I think the Beckworth Round Oak had a max of 24" pot.
Cheers

 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:43 am

Sunny Boy wrote:Scott,

The gas burn-off should be taken care of by how you design a secondary air inlet and also how you load the stove. Tall or short, you know that if you load it wrong and don't provide some secondary air to get those blue ladies dancing, .... BOOM!

Paul
Yes, absolutely!

We don't always operate the stove properly though for lots of reasons!

I have heard that extended/twin can stoves are more susceptible to BOOMs though...lol!

However these all have the breech low on the cyl.

 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:44 am

D-frost wrote:Scalabro,
If I remember, Emery purchased a 'giant' oak, like 10 ft. tall, with a huge fire pot, from upstate N.Y. I don't know the manufacturer, but a call would give you something to start with. Also, I think the Beckworth Round Oak had a max of 24" pot.
Cheers
Emery already thinks I'm nuts....no need to further the issue :mrgreen:


 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25547
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:51 am

scalabro wrote:Paul,

What exactly is the 27/1 ratio defined as?

Thanks.
Square area of the top of the firebox/firepot verses the heat radiating area of the stove.

My range has about 0.7 square feet of firebox. The "rule" says that at 27:1, it should only have 18 square feet of heat radiating surface. That's equivalent to a 2x3x3 box. Much smaller than what my smallish range actually has. If I reduce it simple by shutting the flues to the water reservoir end of the range, I've reduced the heating surface area by over 4 square feet, plus that tank jacket then becomes a heat shield for the entire right side of the range. Without any other changes, the kitchen gets colder and the stack temp and mano readings both go up. Flip the water reservoir dampers back open and the kitchen temp goes up, stack and mano back down. You can stand there all day repeating that affect.

Paul

 
ddahlgren
Member
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue. Feb. 19, 2013 3:30 pm
Location: Mystic CT
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Contact:

Post by ddahlgren » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:00 am

Paul you cook range is exactly what I was thinking of and the 'magic' 27/1 as you have reported good results with much more area than the 'ratio' would predict.

 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:08 am

So....

20 inch pot = 10x10x3.1415 = 314 sq in.

314x27 = 8478 sq in radiative area, or 8478 /144 = 59 sq ft of radiative area.

That equates to a barrel that is 63 inches in circumference by over 11 ft long.

?

 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25547
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:12 am

D-frost wrote:Scalabro,
If I remember, Emery purchased a 'giant' oak, like 10 ft. tall, with a huge fire pot, from upstate N.Y. I don't know the manufacturer, but a call would give you something to start with. Also, I think the Beckworth Round Oak had a max of 24" pot.
Cheers
I haven't seen any listed as larger.

Here's a Round Oak E24 with extension can. I've stood next to this stove on a number of occasions and the heat output gets painful, if your within a few feet ! It's been the only heat for my brother-in-law-to-be's open floor plan, tall ceiling house for over 13 years that I'm aware of. This is in the hills of western Massachusetts. And that stove is off in one corner. To the right of it is a long wall of tall windows from kitchen counter to ceiling and the same across the other end of that long entry, kitchen, dinning and living room space. Off all that are three bed rooms and a bath with just 7 foot high walls that don't extend up to the ceiling so that those rooms get heated by convection. I've been there in the depths of winter and the house is very comfortable.

As Scott mentioned, in the first picture you can see that the flue collar is at the top of the barrel - about 6 feet from the floor. The second picture shows the exit collar on the back side, with a slide check damper (closed) at the collar.

I think that if designed and loaded correctly the collar could be lowered down on the barrel. My Glenwood #6 exit collar is rectangular and as low as possible on the barrel, just above the fire bricks. But it has a constant secondary feed with, or without the gas ring. Even lower than the 6 inch round exit collar on my modern Oak 118's.

We don't hear about alot of #6 going BOOM. So either the permanent secondary feed works to prevent that, .... or #6 owners won't fess-up if it does go boom. :D

Paul

Attachments

DSCN2844.JPG
.JPG | 203KB | DSCN2844.JPG
DSCN2849.JPG
.JPG | 222.3KB | DSCN2849.JPG
Last edited by Sunny Boy on Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25547
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:17 am

ddahlgren wrote:Paul you cook range is exactly what I was thinking of and the 'magic' 27/1 as you have reported good results with much more area than the 'ratio' would predict.
And extract enough heat to be able to run all day at about 650 - 700F on the firebox end with low 100F temps three feet up the stack, just below the MPD. Water reservoir on, or off, the coal burns just as well. The only difference is where the heat goes.
;)
Paul

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14658
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:34 am

I agree with Steve about having a lower outlet from the stove. It forces the hot gasses to give up their heat before they are allowed to descend and exit. The physics of air density insure that it happens just this way. It certainly made a difference when I installed my "exhaust diverter".

 
User avatar
ONEDOLLAR
Verified Business Rep.
Posts: 1866
Joined: Thu. Dec. 01, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Sooner Country Oklahoma
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 2014 Chubby Prototype
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite
Contact:

Post by ONEDOLLAR » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:42 am

Sunny Boy wrote:Scalabro,
If I remember, Emery purchased a 'giant' oak, like 10 ft. tall, with a huge fire pot, from upstate N.Y. I don't know the manufacturer, but a call would give you something to start with. Also, I think the Beckworth Round Oak had a max of 24" pot.
Cheers
The stove I believe Emery bought was a Stewart Round Base Heater model 76 from 1888. If I remember right he found it in a general store that closed back in the 50's. There should be a picture of it on his website. IT IS A MONSTER of a stove and I would say is close to 9 feet tall if not a tad more than 9 feet.

http://stovehospital.com/

 
KingCoal
Member
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed. Apr. 03, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Elkhart county, IN.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 9:52 am

scalabro wrote:So....

20 inch pot = 10x10x3.1415 = 314 sq in.

314x27 = 8478 sq in radiative area, or 8478 /144 = 59 sq ft of radiative area.

That equates to a barrel that is 63 inches in circumference by over 11 ft long.

?
you would be better served by including the whole stove in the radiant area not just the barrel.

it's still going to be LARGE.


Post Reply

Return to “Antiques, Baseburners, Kitchen Stoves, Restorations & Modern Reproductions”