Radiative Capacity of a Cylinder Stove
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Ok, so I want to build a Frankenstove.
Kind of for fun.
It's real purpose will be to occaisionally heat a friends storage building. I don't know the dimensions but it houses a 40 ton Komatsu excavator and trailer a 10 or 15 yard Kenworth worth dumper, a old cat dozer, a boat and a couple of muscle cars.
I don't care about recovering costs down the road or what it will look like or if the masses even approve.
I want to buy the biggest oak stove I can and experiment with longer and longer barrels (with the breech always at the top of said barrel of course) until I get a draft issue due to cold dense exhaust gasses.
Then reduce the barrel until a reliable and stable draft can be achieved under most conditions.
Of course cieling height is not an issue and the "chimney" would be pipe straight up and out the peak of the roof.
A project for sure but this friend saw my Crawford 40 and asked what coal stove will heat his building.
I'm buying a naked Octopus too just in case.
Thumbs up or thumbs down?
Thoughts?
Kind of for fun.
It's real purpose will be to occaisionally heat a friends storage building. I don't know the dimensions but it houses a 40 ton Komatsu excavator and trailer a 10 or 15 yard Kenworth worth dumper, a old cat dozer, a boat and a couple of muscle cars.
I don't care about recovering costs down the road or what it will look like or if the masses even approve.
I want to buy the biggest oak stove I can and experiment with longer and longer barrels (with the breech always at the top of said barrel of course) until I get a draft issue due to cold dense exhaust gasses.
Then reduce the barrel until a reliable and stable draft can be achieved under most conditions.
Of course cieling height is not an issue and the "chimney" would be pipe straight up and out the peak of the roof.
A project for sure but this friend saw my Crawford 40 and asked what coal stove will heat his building.
I'm buying a naked Octopus too just in case.
Thumbs up or thumbs down?
Thoughts?
- Pancho
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Welp, to go big.......big big......it seems to me that you'll soon venture outside of the 'norm' of available stove pipe.....no?.
I mean, you could build a Frankenstove with a 3 or a 4ft fire pot that's 3ft deep.....but you then gotta move a BUNCH of air. 6" or 8" stove pipe probably would be your MPD. No?.
I mean, you could build a Frankenstove with a 3 or a 4ft fire pot that's 3ft deep.....but you then gotta move a BUNCH of air. 6" or 8" stove pipe probably would be your MPD. No?.
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I guess my post may have been confusing. I want to buy an oak stove with the largest diameter firepot I can (20 in?), and install progressively longer barrels, to see how tall I can go before the exhaust cools off and it no longer drafts reliably.
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That would make for an excellent waste oil burner! With equipment like that, I'd imagine he's got GALLONS of the stuff.
I had the barn 54° all day today, while it reached a super windy high of 19°. So warm that I created a massive roof leak in my new roof! Had to climb up there and do some shoveling. Always something!
Making a tall, round unit like that would be IDEAL for waste oil - you'd extract every ounce of heat. Would be easy enough to leave all the parts necessary to burn coal in it as well.
I had the barn 54° all day today, while it reached a super windy high of 19°. So warm that I created a massive roof leak in my new roof! Had to climb up there and do some shoveling. Always something!
Making a tall, round unit like that would be IDEAL for waste oil - you'd extract every ounce of heat. Would be easy enough to leave all the parts necessary to burn coal in it as well.
- Pancho
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OH....I misunderstood.scalabro wrote:I guess my post may have been confusing. I want to buy an oak stove with the largest diameter firepot I can (20 in?), and install progressively longer barrels, to see how tall I can go before the exhaust cools off and it no longer drafts reliably.
as you were.
Anything will work as long as you don't get too far away from the 27/1 ratio of firepot to radiant surface. For every sq inch of fire pot you can have 27 sq inch of radiant surface. Get too far from that and you hit the law of diminishing returns.
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i don't want to be argumentative but you don't want the breech at the top of the barrel no matter what they did in the past.scalabro wrote:Ok, so I want to build a Frankenstove.
Kind of for fun.
It's real purpose will be to occaisionally heat a friends storage building. I don't know the dimensions but it houses a 40 ton Komatsu excavator and trailer a 10 or 15 yard Kenworth worth dumper, a old cat dozer, a boat and a couple of muscle cars.
I don't care about recovering costs down the road or what it will look like or if the masses even approve.
I want to buy the biggest oak stove I can and experiment with longer and longer barrels (with the breech always at the top of said barrel of course) until I get a draft issue due to cold dense exhaust gasses.
Then reduce the barrel until a reliable and stable draft can be achieved under most conditions.
Of course cieling height is not an issue and the "chimney" would be pipe straight up and out the peak of the roof.
A project for sure but this friend saw my Crawford 40 and asked what coal stove will heat his building.
I'm buying a naked Octopus too just in case.
Thumbs up or thumbs down?
Thoughts?
you can to a certain extent, disarm the 27:1 grate area to radiant surface ratio by keeping the bottom of the exit collar not more than 6" above the top of the fire pot.
it will be best to have a diverter / baffle under the exhaust collar and sloping up toward the middle of the barrel. what will happen is the baffle will keep the exhaust from going straight out of the stove AND cause it to go to the top, where it will give up enough heat to sink back down the sides. then due to the mushroom current of the air coming thru the fire bed some of it will re mix and rise again while some will be forced out the collar ( BURNelli principle)
if you have the collar at the top all the hottest air will leave the stove before it releases it's energy.
you can probably double the average barrel height if done properly.
- Sunny Boy
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As soon as I read about the exit collar always at the top, I thought the same as Steve. With the exit collar at the top, the barrel would just become one large stack, rather than a heat exchanging plenum.
Steve's suggestion of the exit collar low down on the barrel with a baffle would be a better way to go.
Think where and how you want the hot gases to go,..... and then force them to go where you want, not where they want !
As for the 27 to 1 rule, is it really a "carved in stone" rule - never to be broken ? If so, why were there cylinder stoves sold with very tall extension tops ?
My kitchen range, with it's 7x15 inch firebox, far exceeds the 27:1 rule and it works fine. If I reduce that total radiating area by flipping the damper and shutting off the 4+ square feet of the water tank end, it does not put out as much heat and the stack temp goes up. In other words I just send more heat up the chimney.
Paul
Steve's suggestion of the exit collar low down on the barrel with a baffle would be a better way to go.
Think where and how you want the hot gases to go,..... and then force them to go where you want, not where they want !
As for the 27 to 1 rule, is it really a "carved in stone" rule - never to be broken ? If so, why were there cylinder stoves sold with very tall extension tops ?
My kitchen range, with it's 7x15 inch firebox, far exceeds the 27:1 rule and it works fine. If I reduce that total radiating area by flipping the damper and shutting off the 4+ square feet of the water tank end, it does not put out as much heat and the stack temp goes up. In other words I just send more heat up the chimney.
Paul
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It is all about the chimney not the stove. Most old timer rules are observations of practices common a century ago not scientific facts rules etc. By the way Bernoulli has nothing to do with any of this as that describes easily how wings work etc. not a chimney. A chimney works strictly on air density differential.
The 27/1 ratio came from studying the stoves that survived from back in the day to be still in use today. Ratio's way under that or way over it just didn't survive. Why? There is a balance between efficiency in fuel usage and function. Balance is the key. You can have a huge stove with a huge cylinder and a small fire pot. You will never get the function but you won't burn very much coal. Otherwise why not have the largest stove you can get with the smallest coal pot?
You look for a balance in all things. Can you make a frankenstove with a huge barrel? Of course you can. It just may not do what you want it to do but after all it's your metal and your house. Have a ball and learn and as you learn teach the rest of us.
You look for a balance in all things. Can you make a frankenstove with a huge barrel? Of course you can. It just may not do what you want it to do but after all it's your metal and your house. Have a ball and learn and as you learn teach the rest of us.
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Would a 'back pipe' work on this design?
The flue exit would still be near the top of the stove, insuring the gasses went to the top of the radiating surface, then exit down the back pipe for a distance, and exit to the flue pipe into the chimney.
The flue exit would still be near the top of the stove, insuring the gasses went to the top of the radiating surface, then exit down the back pipe for a distance, and exit to the flue pipe into the chimney.
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the 27:1 rule IS a valid consideration.
it is visible in many of the period stoves but seems to have been used on a sliding scale at the high end depending on the design and application.
it's also pretty interesting that most of the extension barrels seen are on stoves that are quite large to start with
it is visible in many of the period stoves but seems to have been used on a sliding scale at the high end depending on the design and application.
it's also pretty interesting that most of the extension barrels seen are on stoves that are quite large to start with
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Believe what you chose but does not change the physics of the event. It is all about air density period. Consider an exterior masonry chimney vs. an insulated center chimney then rethink it. With a lot of heat exchanger you always have the option to move some dampers and send more heat to chimney and if very cold close them and send more heat to the building. The magic ratio does not explain cook stoves either as they can be more and work just fine.blrman07 wrote:The 27/1 ratio came from studying the stoves that survived from back in the day to be still in use today. Ratio's way under that or way over it just didn't survive. Why? There is a balance between efficiency in fuel usage and function. Balance is the key. You can have a huge stove with a huge cylinder and a small fire pot. You will never get the function but you won't burn very much coal. Otherwise why not have the largest stove you can get with the smallest coal pot?
You look for a balance in all things. Can you make a frankenstove with a huge barrel? Of course you can. It just may not do what you want it to do but after all it's your metal and your house. Have a ball and learn and as you learn teach the rest of us.
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Please guys start another thread if you want to discuss chimney theory.
Rev. Larry,
What exactly is the 27/1 ratio?
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AFA the breech at the top, well it's my thought that installing it there would minimize the accumulation of volatile gasses. You don't want an explosion! With a huge can and a low breech I think I'd be building a bomb.
Rev. Larry,
What exactly is the 27/1 ratio?
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AFA the breech at the top, well it's my thought that installing it there would minimize the accumulation of volatile gasses. You don't want an explosion! With a huge can and a low breech I think I'd be building a bomb.
Last edited by scalabro on Sun. Feb. 01, 2015 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Might it look like the attached photo?
Randy
Randy