Coal or Pellets?

 
rojamon
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Post by rojamon » Wed. Feb. 27, 2008 9:57 pm

I plan on purchasing a stove this spring as my heating costs are through the roof. I currently have a propane boiler with hot water registers and seperate zones. My home is approx 2200 sq ft. It has a great room which loses alot of heat and keeps my boiler running. I live in upstate NY which can get brutally cold . What I want to do is put a stove in the great room and use the boiler to heat the bedrooms. I could potentially use the stove through March and into April. My home is fairly new construction (6yrs old).
I would like advice on which to use for my application? I have heard pro's and con's for both coal and pellets. Any idea's on what might be best for my application?


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Wed. Feb. 27, 2008 11:50 pm

If you can get the coal at a reasonable price certainly the coal. That's the first thing to consider, where you're going to get the fuel. If you can get it at a decent price it's a no brainer. One thing I will tell you about everyone in your situation considering it for a supplementary heat is they find they end up using it for the primary heat source and/or wished they has considered doing that to begin with.

 
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watkinsdr
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Post by watkinsdr » Thu. Feb. 28, 2008 3:49 am

Welcome to the forum. I concur with Richard, if you can find a reliable, reasonably priced source of anthracite, go coal. In my humble and admittedly bias option, wood pellets are highly over rated and over priced. Check out the BTUs per unit volume: 1 ton of coal equals approx. 26 million BTUs, 1 ton of pellets equals approx. 13 million BTUs---pellets are roughly twice as expensive as coal per unit volume. If 'yer paying approx. $225/ton for pellets, buying coal for anything less than $450/ton saves you money---which should be easy even in upstate New York.

I started looking at pellets about a year ago when I concluded the price of heating my home was out of control. Being born and raised in northeastern Pennsylvania (NEPA), I quickly returned to my roots and started seriously investigating coal---and I'm glad I did! My primary heating system was forced hot air propane. I bought a Keystoker Koker stoker furnace; and, plumbed it into my cold air return and hot air supply system. It's been working like a champ all winter. I've drastically reduced my heating costs; and, I'm warm again!

Having a forced hot water system, I'd highly recommend at stoker coal boiler, plumbed directly into your system. The coal boiler will become your primary heat source; with, propane becoming your backup. A couple of ball valves, minor plumbing, and couple of easy wiring changes; and, you'll be off to the races. Your existing heating zone thermostats; and, distribution pumps will work just fine with the coal boiler. You'll spend a little extra cash making this happen; but, I'm sure your payback at today's propane prices will be two years or less. Added bonus---you'll be warm again.

There are several coal boilers to choose from, my local dealer in New Hampshire sells Keystoker. He recently helped another forum member with his conversion to a coal boiler in Hollis, NH. I'll send you a PM with more information. Finding a dealer in your area is your next step.

 
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Post by Coal Jockey » Thu. Feb. 28, 2008 6:13 am

watkinsdr wrote:Welcome to the forum. I concur with Richard, if you can find a reliable, reasonably priced source of anthracite, go coal. In my humble and admittedly bias option, wood pellets are highly over rated and over priced. Check out the BTUs per unit volume: 1 ton of coal equals approx. 26 million BTUs, 1 ton of pellets equals approx. 13 million BTUs---pellets are roughly twice as expensive as coal per unit volume. If 'yer paying approx. $225/ton for pellets, buying coal for anything less than $450/ton saves you money---which should be easy even in upstate New York.

I started looking at pellets about a year ago when I concluded the price of heating my home was out of control. Being born and raised in northeastern Pennsylvania (NEPA), I quickly returned to my roots and started seriously investigating coal---and I'm glad I did! My primary heating system was forced hot air propane. I bought a Keystoker Koker stoker furnace; and, plumbed it into my cold air return and hot air supply system. It's been working like a champ all winter. I've drastically reduced my heating costs; and, I'm warm again!

Having a forced hot water system, I'd highly recommend at stoker coal boiler, plumbed directly into your system. The coal boiler will become your primary heat source; with, propane becoming your backup. A couple of ball valves, minor plumbing, and couple of easy wiring changes; and, you'll be off to the races. Your existing heating zone thermostats; and, distribution pumps will work just fine with the coal boiler. You'll spend a little extra cash making this happen; but, I'm sure your payback at today's propane prices will be two years or less. Added bonus---you'll be warm again.

There are several coal boilers to choose from, my local dealer in New Hampshire sells Keystoker. He recently helped another forum member with his conversion to a coal boiler in Hollis, NH. I'll send you a PM with more information. Finding a dealer in your area is your next step.
watkinsdr,
I like your comparison. I find it hard to picture for people when talking to them about the price of coal how it compares to the various other alternative heat sources out there. They seem to assume that wood pellets are equal to wood and wood and coal are equal in terms of btu's. When I tell them the price of a ton of coal delivered - $ 480.00 - they almost croak...until I tell them the equivalent price of the two cord of firewood or so it would take to equal it - $ 500.00 at $ 250.00/cord here. Or the tank of furnace oil at $700.00 bucks. I've spoken with farmhouse owners who are buying a 250 gallon tank full of oil every three weeks - they soon see the benefit of coal!!! Even at $ 480.00/ton it is saving them several hundred dollars a month. It is not "cheap" here, but it is still very competitive. I never advertise coal as cheap or low cost, however if you can walk a prospect through these comparisons and give them an idea of the saavings, they are usually impressed. Especially when firewood guys start ripping off their customers around shorting them and then running out of wood in March leaving them upset and cold etc.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Feb. 28, 2008 6:37 am

The availability of pellets can change pretty quickly depending on what the lumber industry is doing. I live in update NY as well, my local stove shop told me that it is getting very hard for them to secure their next order of pellets.

As a side effect, the farms up here can't afford sawdust for bedding anymore. All of the sawdust goes to the pellet mills.

 
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Steve.N
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Post by Steve.N » Fri. Feb. 29, 2008 9:43 am

I sell pellet wood and coal stoves in my store and burn all three. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both. As everybody before me has said coal, is certainly the lowest cost fuel for the heat given. The burn times are triple that of wood and the heat output is even. If you elect for a hand fired stove there is also the advantage of heat when the electricity goes out plus they will burn wood for a quick warm-up those days where heat isn't required all day. Coal is a heavy dense fuel so a couple of tons don’t take up much room and water doesn’t affect it as long as it doesn't freeze into a lump.

On the down side though coal is dirtier and dustier to burn. If you have never burned coal there certainly is a learning curve and it can be temperamental to get lit. Here in NY coal dealers are few far between, I drive 40 miles to the only dealer that has bulk. A substantial chimney is required, masonry or a manufactured chimney rated for coal.

On the pellet stoves the advantage lies in convenience. The better stoves light themselves and regulate temperature automatically. Pellets are fairly clean and leave little ash, I dump the ash pan in my demonstrator stove only once per two tons of pellets. The pellet supply is growing and as traditional wood consumers disappear (paper industry) wood should be more plentiful to alternate industries. Pellets are widely distributed and can be bought from Wal-Mart to Lowe’s. Pellet stoves require no traditional chimney venting through 3 inch pellet pipe.

On the down side, pellet stoves are all stokers. This means when the power goes off so does your heat. The stoves will only burn pellets so when you run out you can't burn up the furniture to keep yourself warm. Pellet fuel is bulky, a ton sits on a 4ft x 4ft pallet 5ft tall and because it absorbs water it has to stay dry. My distributor says not to store pellets year to year because even though they are in a plastic bag they get damp and burn poorly. Pellet stoves all seem to max out at around 60 thousand BTU output. Even the central hot air and hot water units are only around 100K so if you need more heat than that the choice is to add more stoves.

 
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Post by Cyber36 » Fri. Feb. 29, 2008 12:20 pm

watkinsdr,
I like your comparison. I find it hard to picture for people when talking to them about the price of coal how it compares to the various other alternative heat sources out there. They seem to assume that wood pellets are equal to wood and wood and coal are equal in terms of btu's. When I tell them the price of a ton of coal delivered - $ 480.00 - they almost croak...until I tell them the equivalent price of the two cord of firewood or so it would take to equal it - $ 500.00 at $ 250.00/cord here. Or the tank of furnace oil at $700.00 bucks. I've spoken with farmhouse owners who are buying a 250 gallon tank full of oil every three weeks - they soon see the benefit of coal!!! Even at $ 480.00/ton it is saving them several hundred dollars a month. It is not "cheap" here, but it is still very competitive. I never advertise coal as cheap or low cost, however if you can walk a prospect through these comparisons and give them an idea of the saavings, they are usually impressed. Especially when firewood guys start ripping off their customers around shorting them and then running out of wood in March leaving them upset and cold etc.[/quote]
Seriously - you are paying THAT MUCH for a face cord of wood in your area?? Man, it's only $60 - 70 DELIVERED in my area.


 
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Post by driz » Mon. Mar. 03, 2008 8:34 pm

Pellets are much more plentiful and to some extent cheaper than they have been in at least 3 years around Northern NY. 2 or 3 years ago you couldn't reliably get them and when you did it was well over 5 bucks a bag. At least you can get them pretty easily now and if you are smart you can get a good price. Sams Club carries them but its generic city and when they get them which is erratic. I got 3 tons in early Dec for 3.88 a bag. A ton pallet fits right into the back of a half ton truck. They just push it all the way forward with an emty pallet and you are good to go. Lots of em are shipping with 1.5 ton pallets so more fit on a semi trailer closer to its max weight limits. You sure can't put one of those back there without unloading it and spreading it out completely and using another truck for the difference.
The secret of pellets is timing. Just like fuel oil when its cheap buy all you will need or nearly all. You can pick some up here and there during the winter but deals are really spotty and who wants to be walking all over on slippery walks with 40 lb bags. Having done the corn ethanol thing let me tell you one thing, don't get a pellet only stove. Being able to switch back and forth is very very comforting. On the other hand you can for the most part burn some percentage corn in a pellet stove but the excess ash needs more cleaning and you have to be a tad careful not to let it get too hot with the hotter burning corn. With mine, the Countryside or Magnum as its known today you just can't use the top setting when burning straight corn. Don't ever get a pellet stove without an ash pan as its way too much frequent cleaning. Another thing I never worry much about is the electric going out. Any sort of decent generator works with mine in a pinch and I have a Sams Club 700 watt inverter that I have yet to try if battery power is needed. Pretty versatile but it has its limitations. The one thing I really miss is no radiant heat. That sucks when its cold out.

 
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Mar. 03, 2008 9:37 pm

Steve.N wrote:
On the down side though coal is dirtier and dustier to burn.


True to some extent and how much really depends on your situation. If you get a small stove and put it in the living room then yes it will be problem. You can eliminate most of the coal dust by lightly spraying it with garden type sprayer filled with water before moving it. On the other hand if you get a furnace or very large stoker and plan for it by either placing it in isolated section of your basement or as some have done put it outside building dust is no longer a problem...
The better stoves light themselves and regulate temperature automatically.
Coal trol has a auto ignition feature in the works for the smaller stoves, having said that seasoned veterans that burn coal generally only light their stove once a year. We burn ours year round and it only gets lit once and that's only because we shut it down for maintenance. :D As far as regulating the temperature a stoker is no different than any traditional heating appliance.

Just my opinion but as I said if you can get the fuel at reasonable cost its no brainer when deciding over pellets, the only thing I would consider a pellet stove for is if I had a small area in the living space I needed to heat where dust was a concern.

 
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Post by jpen1 » Mon. Mar. 03, 2008 11:06 pm

Actually pellets can be much dustier than coal. If you damp down the coal or oil it there is less dust than with the pellets. Also before buying a pellet appliance have the whole family tested for mold allergies. I found this out the hard way and my wife was miserable the whole time we heated with pellets and caused many trips to specialists, allergists and weekly allergy shots. Got rid of the pellets allergies went away and we are much warmer for a lot less $ .

 
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Post by e.alleg » Tue. Mar. 04, 2008 8:37 am

When I tell them the price of a ton of coal delivered - $ 480.00 - they almost croak..
where do you live? $500 a ton anywhere in the northeast is a ripoff. $250 for a cord of wood is a bigger ripoff, unless you are buying from the campground store at $5 a bundle.

 
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Post by wally61 » Tue. Mar. 04, 2008 2:53 pm

i can get coal for $300 a skid 1.25 ton. not to far from u e.allg. great fire convention. to me I was told pellet stove supplemental heat coal all heat. I heat my house with a channing III with coal trol.go thru about 2.5 ton a year. 2 story 10 room house about 1800sgft.74 degrees dwn 68 up. I think the dust comes from the dry heat not the coal.i lite my stove at the beginning of heat season and do not turn offf until season is over. when furnace wants to come on I lite it. best thing I ever did. my gas furnace does not even come on all winter long. costs me 100$ a month to keep house 74 degrees. 17 dollar gas bill last mounth

 
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Post by driz » Tue. Mar. 04, 2008 7:15 pm

You get the dust pouring in the bag. Exercising care will drop it to almost nill. If it bothers you try doing this, I just fingered this one out usin my bean and like most works of genius did it all by accident. Hang that puppy with the bottom of the bag right down in the bottom of the hopper leaning slightly towards the front so you can get to the very bottom of the bag. There is no seam there. Take a razor knife and slit the baby across from side to side just like you are gutting your favorite Bambi. Hardly any dust comes up at all as opposed to the normal way of doing it and the pellets just slide out neatern snot. :lol: The same probably holds true for coal or anything else. I never found the dust to be a problem with the Coutryside, it just burns it up like anything else.

 
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Post by Sting » Tue. Mar. 04, 2008 7:35 pm

AttA Boy Driz

I have been feeding Baby Boiler the same way!

 
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Post by Coal Jockey » Tue. Mar. 04, 2008 8:30 pm

e.alleg wrote:
When I tell them the price of a ton of coal delivered - $ 480.00 - they almost croak..
where do you live? $500 a ton anywhere in the northeast is a ripoff. $250 for a cord of wood is a bigger ripoff, unless you are buying from the campground store at $5 a bundle.
I'm the dealer for coal around here. I pay my importer wholesale what you guys pay retail. I have to make a living I have to put fuel in my truck, I have to pay myself a wage for slugging bags, I have to pay insurance on my truck, pay the electric bills, etc. I'm in Canada. Nowhere near a coal mine, and trucking to my yard is steep. The fact that I can deliver a ton of coal to a customer's house cheaper than the equivalent amount of wood, albeit only by twenty bucks or so, means I'm shaving things pretty thin profitwise.
Nobody sells firewood by the face cord here. It is all bush cords - 4' x 4' x 8'. Or by the "half ton load" usual price for a half ton load is $150.00 - $200.00 picked up, a cord of hardwood cut split and delivered aberages $250.00 delivered in the country - in the city it can be double that.

The firewood racket is driven by the oil market - oil spikes, firewood spikes. People gotta pay or freeze...until the Coal Guy comes along with coal for twenty bucks less... :lol:

I'm not in the charity business. I have 30 more years to work and plan on making the coal business my life's work until retirement. To do that one must make a profit - otherwise you go out of business... okay?


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