Best Heating System for This Situation?

 
tuttlere
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Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 3:31 pm

I've been reading the forums for about a year now, looking for the best system for my place and I think I'm leaning toward an outdoor coal boiler. My circumstances seem to be a little different then anything I've been able to find so far and I'm looking for some advice to confirm if I'm headed in the right direction or not.

My current information:

Northern NY
2 story farm-house built in 1880
Completely renovated in about 2004 by previous owner including insulation and new furnace, etc.
Approximately 1800 square feet of conditioned space
Oil fired forced hot air with all hot and cold ducting on 1st floor only (basement ducts with floor registers)
Framing is all hand hewn solid oak with many wide rough cut oak studs in walls (basically no chance of running ducts to second floor)
Convection hot air to 2nd floor only (1 register in each upstairs room, plus the stairway)

The furnace uses around 80 gallons a month in November,March.April
It uses around 120 gallons a month in December, January, February (sometimes up to 140 gallons during really cold spells)

It is kept at 60 during the night and during the day with a programmable t-stat and brought to 64 while we are up and about
On cold days the entire house is pretty cold, but upstairs can get really chilly. Some areas feel like a walk in fridge on cold mornings.

The basement ceiling isn't quite tall enough for me to stand up without hunching, so I'd rather not put any type of heat source down there that will require daily visits of any kind. This counts out a wood stove/wood furnace/coal stoker etc. I'm thinking an outdoor coal boiler would solve this problem. The next thing is coal delivery. With an outdoor boiler and plenty of space, I can design a large storage bin and integrate it with the boiler. Lastly, and the largest reason for the boiler is my different zone ideas. Obviously, I think I would go with a heat exchanger in my furnace and leave that in place, but I'm also thinking that I could snake some lines upstairs and put in some radiators or something similar to use the boiler system for supplemental upstairs heat. This would let me get the 2nd floor to a better temp without the problem of running large ducts in the walls. Lastly, I'm thinking I would run lines to the shop (14x30) for heat out there as well.

Zone breakdown:
Basement furnace heat exchanger - 1
Upstairs bedroom - 1
Upstairs bedroom - 1
Upstairs bedroom - 1
Upstairs landing/hallway - 1
Workshop - 1

Does an outdoor coal boiler seem like the best solution in this situation?


 
Phil May
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Post by Phil May » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 4:37 pm

Build a boiler room on your shop and get an EFM. Most outdoor boilers are not near the quality of an EFM.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 4:41 pm

Can you be more specific than Northern NY? You might be close to a few different types of installations that could give you some ideas.

I think you have some good ideas. Some baseboards in the upstairs would really improve the comfort level, and you could run the pipes up a chase on an inside wall if you really had to.

:idea: If you intend to heat the shop anyway, is there room for the boiler out there? I am usually a big proponent of putting the boiler in the house to make the best use of the radiant heat (warm basement :dancing:) but if the ceiling is low and the shop is available & insulated, it might be a good option to consider.

 
tuttlere
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Other Heating: Thermopride Oil Fired FHA

Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 5:36 pm

Thanks for the replies guys.

I guess I should have been more specific on an outdoor boiler. I was picturing an indoor boiler in an outbuilding, probably something like the EFM520. It could go in the shop, but I was thinking of a separate building for a few reasons. I could have it closer to the main driveway to aid in coal delivery, it would be closer to the house to reduce the underground run, and by not putting it in the shop, I could save on space and also move some shop stuff to the new building to help even more on space in the actual shop. I'm thinking the motorcycle and lawn mower, etc could go to the new building to free up space and to keep them warm in the cold months by using "free" radiant heat from the boiler.

I really like the idea of a warm basement and therefore warmer floors upstairs, but the whole headroom issue makes it hard to consider.

As far as location, I'm around Gouverneur, or about 2 hours north of Syracuse. (No bulk coal suppliers very close that I know of).

 
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tsb
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Post by tsb » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 5:50 pm

Your bringing hot water into the basement for the heat exchanger, run a couple of loops
to help warm up the floors. Where you are and your heat load, your looking at a
tractor trailer load for delivery. One shot and done.

 
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mozz
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Post by mozz » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 6:11 pm

Present chimney? Building a new chimney in the outbuilding?

 
tuttlere
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Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 6:47 pm

I was wondering about installing loops in the basement ceiling but wasn't sure if much heat transfer would make it to the floor above. The floor looks like it has 2 layers of old plank followed by a newer plywood subfloor with hardwood on top.

What kind of coal usage would you guess I'm looking at? Based on previous reading and talking to people, I'm assuming 6 ton at the minimum but maybe I'm going to be more like 8-10 ton? Right now we're running the heat in the low 60s and I'm sure we'd bump that up to around 70 if we had a coal system so I'm not sure what that does to the estimate?

I'm looking at a new building for the boiler, so any chimney would be new. The furnace in the basement has a relatively new block chimney, but it's in use and I still don't really like the boiler in the basement idea due to head clearance.


 
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tikigeorge
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Post by tikigeorge » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 7:33 pm

Take a look at Keystoker Boiler http://www.keystoker.com :)

 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 8:38 pm

tuttlere,Welcome to the forum. Seems to me that the reason your upstairs is freezing is because your downstairs is COLD. Turn the heat up to 72* & then see what your upstairs is like,i lived in a number of farm houses with ceiling to floor registers the only upstairs heat source. That system actually works pretty good,but you have to have heat down stairs for it to rise to the second floor.Putting baseboard heat in the second floor would allow you to close those registers off completely,so you have 2 options.Your plan is good , BUT,put the boiler in a building that you actually want heated,the radiant heat coming off a boiler will surprise you.Regarding under ground pex runs, DO NOT SKIMP ON INSULATION, the best way I have heard of is the foam in place in the ditch. I think Scottscoaled posted some pics of this procedure. This is likely the most important part of a remote location install. Our melt lines are not bad but we were surprised to find that the pre-insulated assembled package we bought is where we are thawing the ground the most.The runs that we made ourselves & insulated ourselves are actually better.

 
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Hambden Bob
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Post by Hambden Bob » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 9:03 pm

Budget for the higher tonnage used per year.....Start out with keeping the home and buildings at a 70* minimum(unless You enjoy the present Eskimo Life) and track Your usage for future coal stockpiling. The good news,coal won't go bad held for usage ahead. Get to know Your Heating Animal,and the rest of Your coal stockpile questions will become moot. You've received excellent advice from these Guys....Remember,as I always say:"Cheap Kills". The good money You spend on correct-depth and insulation of Your underground Pex will always pay You back. Keep Your present oil set-up as a working back-up. I understand the previous Owners' rebuild efforts,but unless I missed something,hows' Your Attic Insulation ? :gee:

 
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labman
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Post by labman » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 9:44 pm

What ever you decide on should have a backup plan also. My granddaughter lives in Russell, which isn't too far from you. If memory serves me an ice storm over Christmas, 2013 caused widespread power outages; some lasting weeks. If it were me, I would also try to plan for extended power loss. You are in the snow belt. And I'm surprised you oil usage isn't worse than stated. I know some in your area that use almost double what you use in any given period of time.
You will love coal. Just provide for storage space and buy more than what you think you need. I have an earthen berm pit that has a liner in it and I fill it and cover it with another liner. That way I buy 4 or 5 years worth at once. Do a heat loss calculation on the home to see what the demands will be. All that info is contained in this forum. Just trying to help you make an educated decision since it gets SO cold there. -40 isn't unheard of.
The good news is you all don't need A/C very often. ;)

 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 9:55 pm

labman,the reason that tuttlere uses so little oil is because he doesn't heat his house ! :shock: he only keeps it from freezing.

 
tuttlere
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Koker 160
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Other Heating: Thermopride Oil Fired FHA

Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 9:57 pm

Tikigeorge, I had looked at the keystokers and was considering the hot air furnace until further reading made me lean toward the boilers. From what I've read, efm seems to be the most popular for boiler systems. How would you compare the two?

 
tuttlere
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Location: Gouverneur, NY
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Koker 160
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Thermopride Oil Fired FHA

Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 10:04 pm

Windy hill, I have run the thermostat higher a few times when people were over and it did make a noticeable difference upstairs overnight. The thing is, I prefer things on the cooler side, so I don't want to cook myself out downstairs just to keep the upstairs above freezing :D. Kids will be in the near future and I know I'll have to keep the house warmer then, so that's why I'm looking at options and planning now.

I would like an additional heated outbuilding so putting the boiler in a new building doesn't bother me too much aside from the added cost of new construction. Wherever I end up putting it, I don't plan on cutting any corners on quality.

 
tuttlere
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Location: Gouverneur, NY
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Koker 160
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Thermopride Oil Fired FHA

Post by tuttlere » Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 10:18 pm

Bob, the previous owner renovation was done fairly well although with less mind toward modern air sealing and techniques then I would have liked to see. The attic is insulated fairly well, although it could use some air sealing and a bit more insulation to be up to current energy audit standards. I also plan on sealing the basement rim joist along with a few other things.

I plan on keeping the oil furnace and will fire it occasionally to keep things in working order. That is part of the reason I'm leaning toward the boiler system with heat exchanger. I also plan on using it for any future extended trips during winter months when I may shut down the boiler.

Part of the reason for wanting a new outbuilding is so that I can design an integrated large coal holding area that is easily accessible for unloading truckloads (I work with CAD and 3d modeling on a daily basis).
Last edited by tuttlere on Thu. Feb. 12, 2015 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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