Steam Boiler?
- ASea
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Who makes the best steam boiler? I am looking at a vintage 1920's home with Oil fired steam heat. I would be looking to install a coal fired boiler in series with the oil boiler. I don't mind steam, I hear it is actually the best heat due to the fact it adds some moisture to the air.
- tikigeorge
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Check http://www.Keystoker.com
- StokerDon
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Are you looking to buy a new or used unit?
Asuming you mean a stoker boiler. I think all of the oldies but goodies (EFM, GJ, Van Wert, AA, Keystoker, Losch, Yellow Flame, ect...) are capable of making steam. You just need to install steam controls instead of hot water controls.
As far as new units go, EFM's and Keystoker's will make steam. I think the AHS will make steam to.
I'm sure there is more that I can't think of right now, but that's a good start.
-Don
Asuming you mean a stoker boiler. I think all of the oldies but goodies (EFM, GJ, Van Wert, AA, Keystoker, Losch, Yellow Flame, ect...) are capable of making steam. You just need to install steam controls instead of hot water controls.
As far as new units go, EFM's and Keystoker's will make steam. I think the AHS will make steam to.
I'm sure there is more that I can't think of right now, but that's a good start.
-Don
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I'm not sure what you are envisioning here, but I don't think steam works in series the same way a hot water system could. What is the make, model and rating of the oil boiler?ASea wrote: I would be looking to install a coal fired boiler in series with the oil boiler.
Mike
- ASea
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I'm not sure what's there now for a boiler.I do know oil and steam are in inefficient combo. I will have to check with a boiler tech to see if I can install in series. I think it would kill the value of the house to heat strictly with coal. The leisure line can be converted to oil so that might be an idea. I am just pipe dreaming here in the meantime.
- Rob R.
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Having multiple steam boilers is not as simple as with hot water. The water line of each boiler has to be at the same height, and there are some other piping considerations. It is not easy to find someone knowledgeable about residential steam, and finding someone that knows something about steam AND coal will be even more challenging.
I think you mean it is not economical. Do you have natural gas available?ASea wrote:.I do know oil and steam are in inefficient combo.
- StokerDon
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I didn't know leisure line made something capable of making steam?
About a year ago, I posed a a simlare question about an add on steam boiler. I think a lot of your questions can be answered by reading this thread.
Add on Steam Boiler?
It was very helpful to me.
-Don
About a year ago, I posed a a simlare question about an add on steam boiler. I think a lot of your questions can be answered by reading this thread.
Add on Steam Boiler?
It was very helpful to me.
-Don
Last edited by StokerDon on Sat. Apr. 01, 2017 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: fixed link
Reason: fixed link
-
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From that thread I would highlight vampiro's comments about valving off one boiler and running the other, as opposed to any type of attempt to run both at the same time. I would think of that as being a parallel installation, but maybe piping experts would call it something else.
I have never seen or heard of a residential steam system that involves running 2 boilers at the same to power the same radiation. I have had a few houses with multiple steam boilers, but all were installed in parallel.
If you valve one off while the other is running, I don't think the water level issues are of overriding practical importance. It's not a big deal to add or drain water as needed, especially if switch-overs are performed infrequently. If it is some type of code requirement you obviously would need to conform to it to pass an inspection.
If frequent switch-overs are likely, it probably makes a dual-fuel boiler more of an option to consider.
If your only reason for wanting 2 boilers is resale value, another possibility with some boilers is to change out the burner (e.g., so you would use the existing unit as a coal stoker boiler, and stick the oil burner back in at such time as you sell the house). Our last 2 houses had boilers that were designed for coal but had been converted to other fuels.
FWIW, I think the reputation of oil and steam being an inefficient combination comes from the common situation where oil burners were added to "automate" old, high mass coal-fired steam systems. More modern systems have lower standby losses because they can "idle" at lower temps without so many BTU's going up the stack. So the oil would tend to be more efficient if installed in a system designed around its "on/off" characteristics, rather than one designed around a continuous coal fire.
Mike
I have never seen or heard of a residential steam system that involves running 2 boilers at the same to power the same radiation. I have had a few houses with multiple steam boilers, but all were installed in parallel.
If you valve one off while the other is running, I don't think the water level issues are of overriding practical importance. It's not a big deal to add or drain water as needed, especially if switch-overs are performed infrequently. If it is some type of code requirement you obviously would need to conform to it to pass an inspection.
If frequent switch-overs are likely, it probably makes a dual-fuel boiler more of an option to consider.
If your only reason for wanting 2 boilers is resale value, another possibility with some boilers is to change out the burner (e.g., so you would use the existing unit as a coal stoker boiler, and stick the oil burner back in at such time as you sell the house). Our last 2 houses had boilers that were designed for coal but had been converted to other fuels.
FWIW, I think the reputation of oil and steam being an inefficient combination comes from the common situation where oil burners were added to "automate" old, high mass coal-fired steam systems. More modern systems have lower standby losses because they can "idle" at lower temps without so many BTU's going up the stack. So the oil would tend to be more efficient if installed in a system designed around its "on/off" characteristics, rather than one designed around a continuous coal fire.
Mike
- ASea
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I was trying to go back and find where I read it. The WL-110 is capable of producing steam as well. The nice thing is if you run your hot water off of it you can switch to oil or natural gas in the off season. I will have to double check. I just happened to see a house built in 1920 that really caught my eye and I am speculating.
- Vampiro
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A sea, here is the link to the page that explains how to pipe in two boilers. Add on Steam Boiler?
As explained in the diagram, this would be the easiest way to plumb in the boilers. You operate either one, or the other, and align the valves according to which boiler is in service. The NOWL does not have to match as you are using isolation valves for either boiler, isolating both the steam, and condensate return.
If you wish to install the boilers in parallel, then you must install the boilers so the water levels will match at the NOWL (normal operating water level). The next important item are non return valves for each boiler located at the main steam distribution piping that goes to the header. Along with the non return valves, you should install an extra set of ball valves ahead of each one. These ensure the steam from one boiler doesn't back up into the other boiler while it is making steam. Again, it can cause serious issues. The steam of the one boiler will overcome the other, and can alter the water levels in both boilers....drop one, and flood the other. The only way the boiler (if both are running) will admit steam to the distribution piping is if it matches the pressure of the header, and lifts the non return valve.
So, to continue on with the parallel installation. You will want constant power to each boiler provided by 110V. You will also need two thermostats. You should get two smart thermostats, this way you are able to control either boiler from your phone. Suppose there is an issue with your oil boiler, and you need to ramp up your coal boiler. You would simply raise the set point of the coal boiler thermostat, and turn off the oil boiler from the ap.
If you are going to run parralel, with the chance of both boilers coming on, use two separate chimney's. The combustion air requirements, and draft settings are different for burning either fuel. The oil boiler's exhaust gases could push back into the coal boiler and push CO into the house. That's a hazard.
I have an Axeman Anderson 260M. Since installing the temporary 55 gallon drum, I haven't had to (though I check on it anyways) had to do anything to it for days. Fill up the drum, and 3 days later there is still coal in there to last another two. The fire idles nicely, and the asher removes ashes even if there are large clinkers. The ash tub I just put under the boiler could last probably four days, and that is with the teens to 20 degree days and nights. If I had a large coal bin and an ash auger, I would feel comfortable running it the whole season and leave it be, with the exception of lubrication and checking the boiler to make sure all is well (which should be done with any boiler). I even keep a daily boiler log, which tracks my fuel usage, maintenance, safety check's, lubrication, and so on.
EFM offers a boiler that has an oil burner for a backup. That is definitely a neat add on if you wish to have one. Being you already have an oil burner, you could still utilize that option, and take the coal boiler to your new home if you rent out the other one.
Good luck.
As explained in the diagram, this would be the easiest way to plumb in the boilers. You operate either one, or the other, and align the valves according to which boiler is in service. The NOWL does not have to match as you are using isolation valves for either boiler, isolating both the steam, and condensate return.
If you wish to install the boilers in parallel, then you must install the boilers so the water levels will match at the NOWL (normal operating water level). The next important item are non return valves for each boiler located at the main steam distribution piping that goes to the header. Along with the non return valves, you should install an extra set of ball valves ahead of each one. These ensure the steam from one boiler doesn't back up into the other boiler while it is making steam. Again, it can cause serious issues. The steam of the one boiler will overcome the other, and can alter the water levels in both boilers....drop one, and flood the other. The only way the boiler (if both are running) will admit steam to the distribution piping is if it matches the pressure of the header, and lifts the non return valve.
So, to continue on with the parallel installation. You will want constant power to each boiler provided by 110V. You will also need two thermostats. You should get two smart thermostats, this way you are able to control either boiler from your phone. Suppose there is an issue with your oil boiler, and you need to ramp up your coal boiler. You would simply raise the set point of the coal boiler thermostat, and turn off the oil boiler from the ap.
If you are going to run parralel, with the chance of both boilers coming on, use two separate chimney's. The combustion air requirements, and draft settings are different for burning either fuel. The oil boiler's exhaust gases could push back into the coal boiler and push CO into the house. That's a hazard.
I have an Axeman Anderson 260M. Since installing the temporary 55 gallon drum, I haven't had to (though I check on it anyways) had to do anything to it for days. Fill up the drum, and 3 days later there is still coal in there to last another two. The fire idles nicely, and the asher removes ashes even if there are large clinkers. The ash tub I just put under the boiler could last probably four days, and that is with the teens to 20 degree days and nights. If I had a large coal bin and an ash auger, I would feel comfortable running it the whole season and leave it be, with the exception of lubrication and checking the boiler to make sure all is well (which should be done with any boiler). I even keep a daily boiler log, which tracks my fuel usage, maintenance, safety check's, lubrication, and so on.
EFM offers a boiler that has an oil burner for a backup. That is definitely a neat add on if you wish to have one. Being you already have an oil burner, you could still utilize that option, and take the coal boiler to your new home if you rent out the other one.
Good luck.
- ASea
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I stand corrected the Leisure Line does not do steam.That's too bad. It seems like a really well put together unit.
-
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If you are tight for space AA has the lowest height it seems. Your choices might be limited depending on the height of your ceiling for your "A" dimension. Just remember the near boiler piping is critical for a quiet system (no banging and clanging).
- ASea
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EFM has a solid time tested setup and oil backup certainly doesn't hurt. I like the idea of no conveyor belt setup.
- McGiever
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I'm biased, but look here:
New (to Me) Axeman 260
New (to Me) Axeman 260
- coaledsweat
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I was lucky enough to get in on this adventure. Talk about a sweet steam system! Proof that a well piped system is worth the effort, a call for heat is satisfied incredibly fast even with 10' ceilings. I was stunned! The key to a good steam system is the header and Hartford Loop.McGiever wrote:I'm biased, but look here:
New (to Me) Axeman 260
Another vote here for the Axeman, they are all rated for steam so if you find a nice used hot water boiler, you just need level controls and a pressuretrol and you have a steam boiler. I'm pretty sure Townsend's boiler was a HW boiler when he got it. Nice thing about the Axeman, it will eat football sized clinkers like candy. LOL