How to plumb a Harman vf3000 Boiler

Sting wrote:From here I think Ill just PM my thoughts so I don't appear argumentative!

I want to see you make that thing in your avatar appear, in a full sized picture.

Now be honest!

What you really want is the thrill of holding the throttle and feeling the engine plus under you!

Sting wrote:There is no one "best" solution

All our "enhanced" wet systems are a series of trade-off's unless we are willing to design from scratch.

These "trade-offs" may be viewed clearly in the picture that Greg has shared. The lowest bidder will only open a system enough to get his equipment in and functioning as fast as possible. Time is money. Unless you willing to clear the boiler room and THEN begin a major project like this - there is no best. Simply 'functional'

I am new here but would enjoy helping if I may!
How far do you wish to go to achieve "best" and help me to understand what you feel is "best"!
Are you looking for quick - with least piping and less functionality and operation economy because fuel is cheep
that would be boilers in series and reuse as much as possible, some manual things to swap, twist, or tweek during the season to keep things on line and some work (as the season cools and warms) to make the boilers play together as you wish.
- or
Most fault tolerant, less human interaction, best economy in all seasons? That would be a correctly sized Primary/Secondary loop design with boilers in parallel, piping your zones with thermal traps, insulated pipes and automatic controls.

For some excellent reading on P/S check out Dan Holohans books “Pumping Away’ and “Primary Secondary Made Easy” at heatinghelp.com. Also John Sigenthaler has quite few articles available at http://www.pmmag.com on primary secondary design and applications.

From here I think Ill just PM my thoughts so I don't appear argumentative!

I'm currently reading "pumping away"... I already have a Gas DHW installed, and I'm already going to have to resweat most of the piping in order to move the Gas Boiler and DHW heater to make room for the Coal Boiler when it arrives in a week or two. What would be needed to accomplish the "Primary/Secondary loop design with boilers in parallel"? Do I need a second Pump and 2 or 3 thermal traps, and what sort of automatic controls? I pay $235 a ton delivery for coal I don't know what is considered cheap, but it works out to be more then 50% cheaper then natural gas.

Sorrry I just got a little lost with all the different methods and schools of thought. I'm willing to take the time and spend a few extra bucks if it saves in the long run..

Since your already entrenched in one of my favorite reading list - next find “Primary Secondary Made Easy”
that should do the trick!

Got that one too.. feel free to reference it, I'll try to follow.

Coalbrokdale wrote: What would be needed to accomplish the "Primary/Secondary loop design with boilers in parallel"?

NOW DON"T LET THE PICTURE GET TO YOU
Its simply an example of a well planned P/S loop with a resistance boiler already in place for back up and directly below its connection to the center Primary Loop - you see two close spaced tee's for the solid fuel boiler out of picture. You can plumb one or twelve boilers into the primary loop like this on similar close spaced tees
- note there are two primary loops in this picture because one is full boiler temperature for radiators and HI temp Domestic hot water production and the right loop is pumped to produce a reduced temperature for infloor radiant pex. Just because the loop on the right isn't a loop in the boiler room it still is a primary loop - it does the same job in a different way and sometimes thats all you need - you don't hang all the stuff in between - Every load takes a unique distribution. this pic is fun because it has lots of possibilities incorporated to provide flexibility and control of energy to heat the house.

Take each loop one at a time and think about how the water will flow around in that loop then see how it will interact and pick up energy to heat the load.

Coalbrokdale wrote: Do I need a second Pump and 2 or 3 thermal traps,

the traps are sometimes redundant if you zone with zone valves. In this pic above the zoning it controlled with pumps and thermo flow pumps are more expensive than combining circulators and traps. Plumbers zone with pumps - heating guys zone with electric valves. Some systems eat pumps - some eat valves and not pumps?????

Coalbrokdale wrote: and what sort of automatic controls?

Again refer to the picture - see the blue box - thats a Taco pumping control - just below the little white box is a Teckmar ODR boiler control configures for a lead follow parallel boiler system.

Now sometimes all this technology can use power while making the best possible comfort for the occupants - but lets digest the example first, then see if you want to make things more manual or more automatic!

Sting, that looks like the 'Master Plumber' final practical exam to get your Journey-man/Master-Plumber certificate!!

That is exactly what I want to avoid.. every one of those relay boxes, controls and gizmos has a finite life.. I have had to replace every relay box in this hot water system in my farmhouse... want to guess when they fail??? And how much fun is it diagnosing a failed relay to a house-sitter or caretaker at 3:00 AM, when I'm in SanJose California, and the farmhouse [in Michigan] is experiencing -10* weather?? And the pipes are freezing??

I still like the KISS program.

NOW with the latest report from Coalbrookdale about his system, it is sounding more and more like my 'simple system' will work fine.
I would plumb the Coal boiler's DHW coil into the cold water side of the 50 gallon gas hot water heater. This way every time there is DHW used, the 50 gallon tank is 'refreshed' with hot water.. This is NOT the best way to do this, the best way is to have a loop between the DHW coil and the 50 gal. gas heater, and a thermostaticly controled small 1/40 hp taco pump in the loop, to keep the 50 gal gas heater at say 125*.. But like I"ve said I like simple

In my setup I have what I describe above, except that it isn't a DHW coil in the coal boiler, it is a small water/water heat exchanger that all the cold water feeding my propane 50 gal hot water heater goes through, preheating it to about 150*. This way I am using coal heated hot water at least 90% of the time. The propane burner is set at 100*, so if there has been no hot water used for say 24 hours, and the 150* water has cooled to <100*, my propane burner does kick in and keep the 50 gallons warm... I don't like this, but the amount of propane used is minimal.. about $10/month maybe.

What I do is if I haven't run any laundry, the dishwasher, or taken a shower since the morning, I make sure I run some hot water so the tank is freshly charged with HOT water for the night, and the propane doesn't kick on during the night. this becomes part of my nightly ritual.. turn on the hot water, to lock the back door, set the outdoor lights, go lock the front door, turn off the hot water, go to bed..

Is this a kludge-method?? Yes!! I freely admit it... but it doesn't have any controls or pumps to go bad, or to have to switch if the coal boiler is shut down for any reason.

With my current system, if the coal boiler implodes, 'cause of a burnt up motor, a tossed belt, a plugged auger or whatever, my propane system will kick in and keep the house and pipes from freezing, and if need be, keep the house comfortable until the coal boiler is back up and making heat.

The Simple-minded guy... Greg L

Yeah _ I knew I was going to dip my toe into the hot end of the pool on this one!

I do not dispute that your system is the best for your house - mine has been a series boiler system for three seasons now also.

And if I don't get my "self" into the boiler room when its nice out this summer - it may next season too!

You can take a Chevy or a Caddy to the grocery store - they both get you there and bring you back with the treats!

Still note there are examples in that pic that everybody can use in their KISS systems like ours and it shows what can be done when you drink and design on a paper napkin.

Quote: when you drink and design on a paper napkin. Unquote...

So that is what happened here:

LsFarm wrote:I'm going to post again my method and suggestion, it follows the KISS principle; Keep I Simple Stu.... !!

Plumb the coal boiler into the return line before it enters the oil boiler... This way the cool return water from the house will be preheated before it gets to the oil boiler. Set the aquastat on the coal boiler 40* hotter than the aquastat on the oil boiler. The oil boiler won't come on unless the coal system is out.

You could install an electric damper in the oil boiler's flue... tied to the oil burner.. this eliminates heat loss up the oil boiler's chimney.

You can use the existing circulator pump, an additional one is not needed

So buy the coal boiler, some associated plumbing to connect it inline with the oil boiler, and buy and install an electric flue damper for the oil boiler..

This is the shortest items-to-purchase list. the simplest way, and IT WORKS..

I think this thread should be retitled to something like 'I need a bicycle, can someone tell me how to make a Space Shuttle?'

Greg L

I'm with Greg. My uncle has has an indoor wood boiler since I was a kid. He just plumbed the wood boiler in BEFORE and in series with the oil boiler using 1-1/4" Steel pipe (MUCH cheaper than copper). Then he uses three 1-1/4" ball valves to isolate the wood boiler. KISS = better in my opinion.

I know he uses a single circulator pump for the whole system, I don't know if he needed a larger pump to account for the wood boiler or not. Perhaps someone here could comment on that.

beatle78 wrote:I know he uses a single circulator pump for the whole system, I don't know if he needed a larger pump to account for the wood boiler or not. Perhaps someone here could comment on that.

Nope, the pump is fine.

I'm a big fan of the kiss principle. But the last night pondering over a couple stella's I had an inspiration. Why not combine the two ideas. The kiss and the close tee deal. Put a close tee setup between the supply and return off the standard oil/gas boiler setup and isolate it with a solenoid valve. The same signal that runs the solenoid would fire a relay to prevent the oil/gas boiler from firing. Hmmm, the best of both worlds. Kiss the close tee. Sounds sexual. Scott

P.S. You guys need to cut down your copper and turn it in for scrap. Your both sitting on a copper mine

I know this is an old thread, but it looked like the best place to post this question:

What is the size of the main connection coming out of the side and top of the vf3000? 1 1/4" , 1 1/2" or 2" ?

Thanks,

Terry

It's 1 1/4".

Terry

Coalkirk:

Do you have a way of posting a larger version of the picture you have in your desctription next to your name? It looks like you have a really nice, clean, install.

Thanks,

Terry