My First Radiator

StokerDon wrote:That is fascinating!!! The third form of heat is electromagnetic radiation!!! This is something I should have figured out a long time ago.

Radiant heat comes out of the radiator in electromagnetic waves at a group of frequencies. The silver paint does a better job of blocking those frequencies than the other colors. Terra cotta blocks these frequencies the least.

My white radiators should work really well.

This is probably the best reason to use a boiler/hot water system rather than a hot air system. You get zero radiant heat from a hot air system. This is one of those things that I always felt was true, but didn't know why.

Thank you all very much for clearing that up.

-Don

Your welcome.
'
Yup, paint it depending on what form of heat you want from the heat source.

Some paints act as a slight insulator, so they reduce conduction heat to the surface thus slightly reducing the convection form of heat removal. And piling on more layers of paint than are needed only makes it worse.

Metallic paints are better at conduction and that's why aluminum paint is used in many instances such as air cooled engines with cast iron cylinders. But not so good when thermal heating from stoves. Quite possibly why non-metallic paints are more common in stove use.

Paul

Today I re-pressure tested and flushed out 6 of the radiators.
Then it was time to bring them all into the house. The long white one and the corner radiator are a huge pain to move! I actually had to do a little scrapping and re-painting to the long white one while it was out on the front porch. Lifting it up onto the porch rubbed some of the paint off. Next I need to remove the two 3 column radiators. then I can install the two white six tube radiators and the corner radiator.

-Don

I drained the radiator side of the system and removed the two 3 column radiators. Now I have 5 radiators in just about the place they need to be.
I started putting together a Pexsupply.com order for the radiator valves and stuff. The thermostatic valves are a little confusing. The Honeywell TRV's don't seem to come with a thermostatic knob. I am going with these Danfoss TRV's,
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Danfoss-013G8019-3-4-Angle-Thermostatic-Radiator-Valve-5556000-p

They are a little confusing to. They come with a knob but there is an optional knob with numbers (sold separately). So If I just get the valve, will it actually be thermostatically controlled?

-Don

StokerDon wrote:They are a little confusing to. They come with a knob but there is an optional knob with numbers (sold separately). So If I just get the valve, will it actually be thermostatically controlled?

Why put thermostatic valves on the radiators themselves? A standard room thermostat running the boiler/circulator, with proper heat anticipation setting, makes for a very even room temperature. What am I missing?

Uh Oh!

rberq wrote:

StokerDon wrote:They are a little confusing to. They come with a knob but there is an optional knob with numbers (sold separately). So If I just get the valve, will it actually be thermostatically controlled?

Why put thermostatic valves on the radiators themselves? A standard room thermostat running the boiler/circulator, with proper heat anticipation setting, makes for a very even room temperature. What am I missing?

Zoning.

The thermostatic radiator valves turn each radiator into it's own zone. Otherwise you would need a thermostat, a transformer and a zone valve for each radiator. If the radiators are in series, this won't work. I am plumbing my radiators from a manifold. each one has it's own supply and return therefore, they will be completely independent of each other.

-Don

StokerDon wrote:

rberq wrote:What am I missing?

Zoning.

The thermostatic radiator valves turn each radiator into it's own zone. Otherwise you would need a thermostat, a transformer and a zone valve for each radiator.

Not for each radiator, but for each room or multi-room zone. I see what you mean, but ....

Because radiators take a long time to heat up, and then stay hot for a long time, a crucial component would seem to be the heat anticipation (a.k.a. cycle time) built into the thermostat. It turns the boiler/circulator off BEFORE the room comes all the way up to the set point, to avoid temperature overruns. When I replaced the thermostat on my system, room temperature was all over the place until I found the proper anticipation setting; now it is very stable. Maybe a thermostat valve installed at the radiator itself has the same effect by being close to the heat source? But more susceptible to error, I would think.

Don,

Looking great!

Any plans on some sort of coaster to protect those nice floors? I am looking for something myself.

Olllotj wrote:Don,

Looking great!

Any plans on some sort of coaster to protect those nice floors? I am looking for something myself.

Thanks.

I had cut pieces of birch plywood for under the feet of the two that were installed. Right now I just have cardboard under these until I think of something better. Hardwood flooring samples cut down have been suggested earlier.

-Don

StokerDon wrote:I had cut pieces of birch plywood for under the feet of the two that were installed. Right now I just have cardboard under these until I think of something better. Hardwood flooring samples cut down have been suggested earlier.

Or laminate flooring. It is tough, thinner than hardwood, and likely you could find a close match to any wood floor. One case would do all the radiators you would ever need in this life and the next. Edges don't look as nice as real wood, though probably could be stained.

rberq wrote: Not for each radiator, but for each room or multi-room zone. I see what you mean, but ....

Because radiators take a long time to heat up, and then stay hot for a long time, a crucial component would seem to be the heat anticipation (a.k.a. cycle time) built into the thermostat. It turns the boiler/circulator off BEFORE the room comes all the way up to the set point, to avoid temperature overruns. When I replaced the thermostat on my system, room temperature was all over the place until I found the proper anticipation setting; now it is very stable. Maybe a thermostat valve installed at the radiator itself has the same effect by being close to the heat source? But more susceptible to error, I would think.

This does nothing to address the problem of lack of zoning inherent with loop systems. If a bedroom is 75 degrees and the thermostat down the hall is calling for heat at 70 degrees, the pump is going to come on and heat the whole loop. Including the bedroom that is already over temp.

With a supply and return header, feeding a supply and return for each room, the 75 degree bedroom thermostatic valve will be OFF allowing the bedroom to cool down while other heat demands are met. That bedroom will actually never get to 75 degrees if the TRV is set at 70 degrees. Once the TRV set-point is reached, that radiator is isolated from the heat source (boiler).

-Don

rberq wrote:

StokerDon wrote:I had cut pieces of birch plywood for under the feet of the two that were installed. Right now I just have cardboard under these until I think of something better. Hardwood flooring samples cut down have been suggested earlier.

Or laminate flooring. It is tough, thinner than hardwood, and likely you could find a close match to any wood floor. One case would do all the radiators you would ever need in this life and the next. Edges don't look as nice as real wood, though probably could be stained.

I think I have a leftover piece of laminate flooring. Good idea!

Thank you,

-Don

I posted a video of last weekends progress. Not much, I got a lot further this weekend.



First I plumbed the two six tube radiators in series with the corner radiator. Then connected it to the 1" PEX zone that the other radiators were attached to.

Then I plumbed the supply header. These headers are a bit longer than I thought they would be. I put an elbow in between so it wouldn't run into the center beam of the house. This made things a little tight after I got the return header in there. I put a hose connection and an air vent on the end of the supply and return header. This made it very easy to power purge the headers. Once I got the return header in I had to change the orientation of some of the valves to eliminate interference. I also had to put another elbow on the return side for the air vent and hose connection. It's a bit busier looking than I thought it would be. I got the Extrol 90 mounted in there. I was a little worried it might not fit, man that thing is big! I filled up the 1" zone and radiators. It took a while, that's a lot of water sit'n there! I used a 1 1/8" hole saw to cut through the floor for the 1" PEX. It worked perfectly, the PEX fits through there so tight you don't need a trim ring. After I filled the 1" zone and rads with water, I ran the pump for about 20 minutes to bleed the air out of the system. This put some heat into the radiators. About 10 minutes later I hear the AC kick on, It's 80 degrees in here! That was 2 hours ago and the rads are still warm.

So there you have it, 1" zone re-plumbed in, supply and return headers plumbed in. Now I need to, install the TRV's, run the PEX to each radiator and bleed the air out.

-Don

I did a temporary install in the one bedroom that is still unfinished. This is at the other end of the house so I wanted to be able to pump some heat back there. I used the two radiators that used to be in the living room.
I installed them yesterday. Today I power purged the zone and bled the air out by running the pump for a while. This is one of the Danfoss TRV's. An important note about Thermostatic Radiator Valves (TRV's):

Although they are all called Thermostatic radiator valves, non of them are actually "Thermostatic" until you buy and install the thermostatic head. So really what you are buying is an expensive manual valve that can be converted to a thermostatic valve. They don't really make that clear when you are trying to buy them.

-Don