My First Radiator

 
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blrman07
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Post by blrman07 » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 7:11 am

StokerDon wrote:
Rob R. wrote:Don, there is no need for 3/4" pex to feed a single radiator. It will certainly work fine, but depending on the system design you might need to throttle some of the loops. Radiators actually put out less heat if the flow rate through them is too high - it disrupts the convection currents within the radiator.
I guess I wasn't considering 3/4" "big". Now that I think about it, the 1/2" PEX should be able to deliver the 12,750 BTU to those two radiators. The 1/2" just seems small! Real easy to work with though.

O.K., all the rest will be 1/2".

-Don
Don I just finished a house last week where I had to repipe almost the whole house as vandals had stolen all the copper and steel piping off the boiler and the basement runs. They left the radiators and stubs to the first and second floors. They would have gotten them also but a neighbor called the police and they walked in with one guy holding copper in his hands and the other guy had a hack saw... :shock: The jails are not full of smart people.. :lol:

The stubs were still connected to the existing radiators and they were 1/2 inch copper with no radiator valves or any way to regulate flow from the boiler. I used 1 inch copper and made separate supply and return headers for the front two radiators and another set for the the back two radiators. I stubbed off the headers and ran all the supply and return runs to the radiators in 1/2 inch orange oxygen barrier pex. I was kinda leary at first about the BTU delivery but said "It was 1/2 inch before so I'll put 1/2 inch back."

It worked great. I followed up when we had our first cool spell where it hit 35F OAT and the folks asked how do we turn down the radiators as they are getting the rooms too hot!!! This is a small row home probably about 900 sq ft heated by a rad in the front living room, a rad in the front bedroom on the second floor then a rad in the kitchen at the rear and another rad in the rear bedroom on the second floor. Nothing in the bathroom. I split it with two zones one being the front zone and the other being the rear zone. There is only one thermostat in the living room and I changed it out with a 7 day programmable unit. With the homes on each side being occupied and I figured they would pick up heat from them through the common walls so I lowered the water temp to 150F high 130 low with a 10 differential. Your 1/2 inch pex should work just fine. :D

The folks had never lived in a hot water boiler heated home before and had been in all electric before. So they put a sheet up across the living room arch way and heated that room up to 80F with an electric oil radiator which they had done in their previous houses. :| Same room where the thermo is at. They called me that the rest of the house was cold. :mad: I had to explain that they couldn't heat up only the room where the thermostat was at and expect the boiler to heat the rest of the house. A short explanation and another no heat call visit and they now understand.

Take the sheet down, put the thermostat on 70 and leave it alone. I started to explain the set back function but decided to leave well enough alone for now. We'll get into setbacks later.


 
Olllotj
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Post by Olllotj » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 7:28 am

Don wow looking great!

I know my system is a different breed, but I also stubbed up using 1/2", only difference is copper vs pex.

What a huge upgrade to the comfort of that home!

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 8:26 am

The next trick will be to mount the thermostat in the coldest room...or just get a smart circulator and let it run all the time, the TRV's will do the rest.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 9:46 am

Larry, I'm very glad your radiator rescue worked out well!
Rob R. wrote:The next trick will be to mount the thermostat in the coldest room...or just get a smart circulator and let it run all the time, the TRV's will do the rest.
I am hoping to avoid the whole "smart circulator" install and continue using dumb circulators. My one pump theory of operation is; The three living room radiators are on there own 1" zone controlled by the thermostat. This zone also controls the pump and does not allow for pump operation when a TRV opens.

I am hoping that we will get gravity flow to the individual radiators once a TRV opens. This will start satisfying the TRV heat call and then when a DHW or thermostat heat call comes along, the pump will finish the call.

So far we have mixed results. The two radiators in the master bedroom and the dining room radiator gravity flow very well. The radiator in the small bedroom only gets luke warm when gravity flowing.

I haven't figured out the best place to move the thermostat to yet. Once it gets cold I can figure that one out. Mid 70's yesterday down here, forcasted to get close to 80 today!

-Don

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 9:51 am

I popped the thermostatic "operator" on the dining room radiator this morning. The Danfoss install instructions say it must be mounted horizontally or it will not work properly.
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Master bedroom thermostatic "operator" has been running for about a month now.
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-Don

 
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Post by CoalHeat » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 9:58 am

Thanks for posting those photos, I was not aware that those existed. I may install a few of them.

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:03 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:Thanks for posting those photos, I was not aware that those existed. I may install a few of them.
They are a bit expensive and don't forget, the "thermostatic operator" part is sold separately. Without the operator, it's just an expensive manual valve. These Danfoss 1/2" valves were about $30 each. The operator was $35!

-Don


 
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Post by blrman07 » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:14 pm

a $65 valve would be more than I paid for the radiator itself~~~

 
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Post by Olllotj » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:20 pm

At $65 each you're approaching the cost of a Honeywell 3/4 zone valve BUT + $30 for a round dial thermostat.

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:23 pm

Olllotj wrote:At $65 each you're approaching the cost of a Honeywell 3/4 zone valve BUT + $30 for a round dial thermostat.
And don't forget the transformer!

-Don

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:25 pm

blrman07 wrote:a $65 valve would be more than I paid for the radiator itself~~~
Most of mine were under $65 to. You've got to control them somehow though!

-Don

 
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Post by Olllotj » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:30 pm

True true! It adds up quick on ya.

I sure am good at fuzzy math when it benefits me!

Luckily my propane boiler control handles the 24v portion for me.

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Oct. 30, 2016 6:43 pm

Olllotj wrote:True true! It adds up quick on ya.

I sure am good at fuzzy math when it benefits me!

Luckily my propane boiler control handles the 24v portion for me.
That's one of the advantages of doing an add on boiler. Most of the controls and zones are already there.

Mine is a "convert the house from hot air, to hot water" system.

-Don

 
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Post by StokerDon » Wed. Nov. 02, 2016 7:47 pm

OK, I figured out a couple of things about these TRV's. I should have researched them a little better before jumping in. I started looking at the Honeywell TRV's and I noticed they make "High Capacity" $59.95, and "Standard Capacity" $21.95 in 1/2" sizes. I had only seen the "High Capacity" TRV's at $59.95 and that scared me away. That's why I went with the Danfoss TRV's at $30 plus $35 for the operator.

The thermostatic actuator, as Honeywell calls it, is different on the standard capacity TRV and is only $19.95 compared to $32.95 for the high capacity.

To summarize these 1/2" TRV's:

Honeywell high capacity = $59.95 + $32.95 = $92.90
Danfoss = $30 + $35 = $65
Honeywell standard capacity = 21.95 + $19.95 = $41.90

I think the Honeywell standard capacity will work for my radiators so, that is what I will buy for the last 2.

Also, in reading the Honeywell manual I found out why the thermostatic part should be mounted horizontally. It's very simple, if you mount the valve vertically, the thermostatic part is over the hot supply pipe. This will cause the valve to shut to soon.

There, I just wanted to clear that up so I didn't lead anyone astray.

-Don

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sat. Nov. 05, 2016 8:00 pm

YET ANOTHER RADIATOR!!!

This morning I went over a friends house to remove this radiator from his back porch. The house was built in 1922 and it has a very old gas fired boiler with a gravity flow system connecting it to all the radiators, NEAT!
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When my freind bought the house this porch radiator was already cut out of the system. After we loaded it on the truck, we noticed that one section had a crack. I rigged it up for a pressure test anyway to see if there were any other leaks.
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The crack sprayed water pretty good but I didn't see any other leaks.
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So, since this thing was already a bit to long to fit on my bathroom wall, I figured I would just cut out the cracked section. This is another radiator that is put together with threaded nipples!
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Used a 2x4 and the rear tire of the truck to hold the radiator still while I cranked the pipe wrench with the 4 foot cheater.
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And there they are, the dreaded threaded nipples!
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Unfortunately, this is the "right hand thread" side of the nipple. That means the part that threads into this side of the radiator section is the "left hand thread" side. I don't think they make left hand threaded pipe, so I decided to put lots of tape and sealer on the nipples and screw couplers on them.
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That worked well enough to do another pressure test. They leaked a little but I think a gasket would seal it up. But, this pressure test reveled a leak in another section connection. DARN!!!
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I'm not sure what I will do with it now. I could hack off another section and pray that the leak isn't in the other section. Maybe it's time to make that threaded nipple tool that I threatened earlier in this thread.

In other news,

Yesterday I PEX'ed in the hall radiator. The only room I really need to get heat into now is the bathroom.

-Don


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