which coal boiler to get

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: jackcoyle On: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:08 pm

I checked out a Van Wert VA400. I think it is too small. The basement it was in was about the size of one room in my basement. I have about 1800 sq. ft above ground to heat and I just don't think the VA 400 will do the job. Also, I hesitate to monkey with my pipes. I have a two pipe steam system run by a Weil McLain LG 5 - 70's vintage. Does the job but cost a fortune to run. I think I'll wait for a bigger boiler or just go with the LL Hearth model with the Coal Trol.

jack
jackcoyle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth Model

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: 26Weeks On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:16 pm

Long time reader first time writer. For me I am going to take it outside installing a new 10x12 building to house either a keystoker or a harman boiler.Not sure how many water lines to bring into the propane boiler and hot water tank?
26Weeks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman / Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: SF-250 Combo - KA6 Boiler

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:47 pm

3 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, 2 water, and 1 power :) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck


Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:34 pm

Image

I knew I did something wrong!
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:50 pm

Personally, I'd add at least one extra run of 14-2 WG cable.. just to control an extra pump, or relay,, I know electrical wire isn't cheap anymore, but an extra run of wires may come in handy.

Don't scrimp on the insulation of the pex pipe you bury. Insulate well, run the pipes inside black plastic corrugated drain pipe,, with no joints.. make the pipe seamless from building to building.. water and damp ground will carry away more heat than your boiler can make,, keep the burried pipes and their insulation dry.

Greg L.

.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:12 pm

If you run a pvc conduit, 3/4" is cheap and large enough, you can pull in individual wires as the needs arise if you pull a string in with the first bunch. A 3/4" conduit will support 16-14ga wires. 22-18 ga. if you're a control freak. LSWITT :) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: 26Weeks On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:46 am

stokerscot wrote:If you run a pvc conduit, 3/4" is cheap and large enough, you can pull in individual wires as the needs arise if you pull a string in with the first bunch. A 3/4" conduit will support 16-14ga wires. 22-18 ga. if you're a control freak. LSWITT :) Scott

Thanks for the assistance I have a fairly new propane boiler that is hooked up already so the plan is to cut into the return side of the propane boiler. The coal boiler would be under 100 feet from the propane boiler. Do you think I should create circulation loops to keep the water hot in the propane boiler and domestic (propane) hot water tank?
26Weeks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman / Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: SF-250 Combo - KA6 Boiler

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:57 am

There's alot of different options. Riddle me this. Are your zones setup with solenoid valves or circ pumps? Can you post a picture? Show us what you got! :) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: LsFarm On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:51 am

Hi 26, I use a water/water plate-type heat exchanger.. this way I have two different water systems.. the exterior one has some antifreeze in it, just incase of a power outage for weeks and no fuel for the generators.

I put the heat exchanger in the return from the baseboard zones, so it preheats the return water, and I reset the propane boiler to a lower temp than the coal water temp.. so the propane burner won't come on.

A 40-plate exchanger is around $200, is simple to plumb in, and works great..

I then have a second plate exchanger that the cold water that supplies the Domestic hot water heater goes through, preheating water to the Domestic tank/heater... I don't use any propane for DHW unless there is no demand for over 18 hours..

Greg L

.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: 26Weeks On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:58 pm

I have not considered plate heaters I just thought I would run 4 water lines supply and return to heat the house and supply and hot water for dhw. Would it be better useing plate heaters? My hot water baseboard already has antifreeze in the system. I have 3 zone valves for now might add another while system is open for some in floor heating. I'm also useing pex-al-pex triple wrap inside 4 inch corragated. I have some pictures of the zone valves but will take a little more patients for me to get them on here as I'm new to site. Thanks Brian
26Weeks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman / Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: SF-250 Combo - KA6 Boiler

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Yanche On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:59 pm

26Weeks wrote:I have not considered plate heaters I just thought I would run 4 water lines supply and return to heat the house and supply and hot water for dhw. Would it be better useing plate heaters? My hot water baseboard already has antifreeze in the system. I have 3 zone valves for now might add another while system is open for some in floor heating. I'm also useing pex-al-pex triple wrap inside 4 inch corragated. I have some pictures of the zone valves but will take a little more patients for me to get them on here as I'm new to site. Thanks Brian
Don't run extra lines for the domestic hot water. Use the boiler lines in the house with a "zone" circuit for the hot water heater. Ideally, it's an indirect hot water heater, one that has an internal heat exchanger. Or an external heat exchanger, plate, tube in shell, etc. type with a conventional water tank. Such a design saves the cost of the domestic coil in the boiler. It's more expensive overall to do it this way but the domestic hot water efficiency is much better and more responsive to demand reheating.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: 26Weeks On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:22 pm

The keystoker comes with domestic hot water coil ,the Harman does not. Just run the two lines and go with plate heaters? Thanks Brian Still trying to post photo.
26Weeks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman / Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: SF-250 Combo - KA6 Boiler

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:00 am

LsFarm wrote:Hi 26, I use a water/water plate-type heat exchanger.. this way I have two different water systems.. the exterior one has some antifreeze in it, just incase of a power outage for weeks and no fuel for the generators.

I put the heat exchanger in the return from the baseboard zones, so it preheats the return water, and I reset the propane boiler to a lower temp than the coal water temp.. so the propane burner won't come on.

A 40-plate exchanger is around $200, is simple to plumb in, and works great..

I then have a second plate exchanger that the cold water that supplies the Domestic hot water heater goes through, preheating water to the Domestic tank/heater... I don't use any propane for DHW unless there is no demand for over 18 hours..

Greg L

.


I enjoy Gregs' advice and think it is always sound he has been kind and a big help for me

- but may I climb once again on my soap box against 1 inch pex and say " use something larger" (1-1/4 or better 1-1/2) - that requires a less expensive, lower pressure, lower watt draw pump - to move a greater volume of energy bearing water at far lower pump head. In the long run - a hi watt draw pump, pushing into a hi head load, to move the same amount of energy - will consume more amps and cost more to operate - than a correctly sized, low power pump, installed with a larger diameter line - and the lower pressure water will transfer energy from boiler to load more effectively.

You will likely circulate the boiler to load loop 24/7 for frost protection and quick load response so antifreeze and the related drama and draw backs of AF can be unnecessary. If worried about power loss frost/freeze/burst protection - pitch everything to a low point in the outhouse, and provide for quick drain to daylight for the liquid above ground level - then you only have a few gallons to drain off the loop to get below the ground frost line. When power it restored - refill and degass the liquid on the first fire. With a coal boiler and a semi insulated outhouse you have a few hours to anguish before you need to make such a desperate move, and you will be draining you house water very soon also. A back up gen set is a better option than boiler burst protection chemicals, but thats my view only and if your gone for extended time during power outage chemical may save an outhouse appliance, but what about the house???????? By then things are going north there too!

Since your circulating that loop that much, do not scrimp on its installation. If not done right, that loop will make any boiler look bad!

BTW how many wires can you run in a 3/4 conduit? - and folks think I am a control freek
Image
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:51 pm

I have to agree with Sting on the PEX sizing. It needs to be larger than 1 inch. All hydronic heating design criterion show that 1 inch piping can not flow near the BTU capability of coal boilers. Yes, you can cheat by using a bigger pump and getting faster flow. As much as I hate "rules of thumb" the rule for boiler supply and return piping is never less that one pipe size less that the boiler tapping. My piping suggestions would be:

1. Copper 1-1/4 or larger
2. Black steel 1-1/4 or larger
3. PEX rigid pipe 1-1/4 or larger
4. Two 1 inch PEX tubing in parallel.

If you select threaded pipe use high temperature RTV silicone sealant (usually red) instead of plumbers pipe dope on threads. Carefully apply to both the male and female threads.

On the use of the PVC electrical conduit. You can not normally mix 110/220 volt supply lines with 24 volt control lines in the same conduit. The exception is if all lines' insulation are rated to the max voltage, i.e. 600 volts in the example. But if you do so the box your control voltages go into must also be rated for 600 volts. This is not the case with anything you would be using to control a hydronic system. The solution to meet electrical code it to run two conduits.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: which coal boiler to get

PostBy: 26Weeks On: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:49 pm

Thank you dont think I'm not listening as I am outside roughing in the spot for the building. Just not sure about pex did you see the guy on ebay that is VERY upset with the dealer that sold him pex? Keep the information comeing thank you. Brian
26Weeks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman / Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: SF-250 Combo - KA6 Boiler