To Those Who've Used Both, Do You Vote Hopper or No Hopper?

yep, yep, yep.

i posted some time ago in a thread questioning this particular design series of stoves that they seem to be PRIMARILY wood intended and could burn coal in a pinch by the inclusion of the cast rocker grates.

i'm not faulting the workmanship or quality of fit and finish on these stoves.

i have reservations about them being, full season, satisfactory coal only burners, that will deliver much in the way of fuel economy or direct heat.

rberq wrote:

Lightning wrote:I was under the impression all of that would make it more efficient. Isn't that the reason for the intricate design?

I mistrust “intricate design”, which can result in more points of failure. That is, the stove may be great under exactly the right conditions, and may be a disaster under other conditions. That is one of the biggest criticisms of the newest wood-stove standards: that the stoves perform very well under rigidly-controlled EPA test conditions, but in the real world (wet wood, say...) they do no better than simple old stoves. Just for example, vary the draft a little and what happens to the air supply coming through the secondary-burn tubes?

KingCoal wrote:the exhaust path is being intentionally kept in the heart of the stove and away from the outer shell as long and as much as possible. this is boiler thinking.

Also "clean" wood stove thinking, I believe – wood being VERY difficult to burn cleanly over a wide range of heat output.

Sunny Boy wrote:it looks like a wood stove that someone thinks can also burn coal

Exactly. And remember, the wood stove market is MUCH larger than the coal stove market, so who are they going to cater to?

In some ways this stove reminds me more of my Napoleon wood stove - well-built and one of the few EPA certified stoves that is flue-ducted in such a way that it doesn't need a catalectic converter to meet the EPA standards back then.

But, as you say, even the manufacturer states that it has to be run near max to stay at it's high efficiency.

Paul

and that right there is the problem.

this is the same mistake made by the automotive industry bowing to the demands of tuning to tailpipe emission standards instead of true cylinder burn efficiency and fuel economy.

darn shame, the best you can do is be aware, do due diligence and make the best choice possible.

OR, design and build your own, even if you use something existing as the foundation.

Yup, I well remember the horse power loss of the early '70's "smog motors", near the end of the muscle car era.

Fanbelt driven air pumps for exhaust manifold air injection, EGR valves that stuck open after a few thousand miles. Carbs with limiter caps on the idle fuel needles, distributors with less advance, and vacuum-robbing operated everything.

Amazing how often that stuff tended to "disappear" off the engine only to have power, ease of maintenance, and better gas mileage reappear.


Paul

KingCoal wrote:I'm not faulting the workmanship or quality of fit and finish on these stoves.

I AM faulting them -- though I admit I am in the minority. Flimsy feeling doors and latches, bolt-on door frames that leak air, careless sloppy assembly, poor design leading to burnout. See my thread DS Machine Quality Control. But I do have to admit that my stove performs well after these other problems are overcome.

KingCoal wrote:OR, design and build your own

Easy for YOU to say.

We're at 27 to 1 favoring the hopper, and my wife is beginning to soften up. She asked me today what options we have for a nice looking stove with a hopper. And she means nice enough looking to go in our living room.

I have never used a hopper but If I could have gotten one for the 983 I sure would have, I see the value in having one thats for sure, faster reloads with already hot coal and longer burn times if need be so I say hopper!

i don't know, you've already looked at what has to be the nicest LOOKING stove with hopper but I thought you said you weren't keen on the double wall feature ?

KingCoal wrote:i don't know, you've already looked at what has to be the nicest LOOKING stove with hopper but I thought you said you weren't keen on the double wall feature ?

Unlike the double walled DS ComfortMax, the Keystoker HFH-90 Hopper doesn't have (to my memory at least) openings in the double wall for convection to occur without the aid of the blower, and I really don't want the blower option. I'm still conflicted, as a rep from Keystoker told me it works just fine without the blower option. I still need to see an Alaska Kodiak, but with that one the round grate in a square firebox box concept doesn't intuitively sit well with me. Seems the corners would be forever getting ash bound.

i'd take the Alaska over the Keystoker any day, just me.

as far as the round grate , square firebox thing goes. you should expect the lower half of the depth of the corners to impact with ash as you mention, but that will actually be good because that much of the firepot will then be ROUND.

if you can get approval on the Alaska I think you will be happy with both the output and the operation.

don't we have members using that stove who can give us some feed back ?

I sure wish that AHS would add a hopper option and a bimetallic air inlet option to their Harman Mark III.

lsayre wrote:I sure wish that AHS would add a hopper option and a bimetallic air inlet option to their Harman Mark III.

OOOh, strong contender.

lsayre wrote:We're at 27 to 1 favoring the hopper, and my wife is beginning to soften up. She asked me today what options we have for a nice looking stove with a hopper. And she means nice enough looking to go in our living room.

I guess it would depend on the size of your living room, and amount of heat you need. Keep in mind "Fan Noise". In a modern stove, I personally would recommend a HITZER 50-93 with fan. The 50-93 has a smaller in diameter, dual squirrel cage fan. Which, if run slow, is fairly quiet. Or, turn the fan completely off. You can buy the 50-93 in different colors, as well as gold, or pewter colored plating on doors, etc.. The build quality, as well as fit & finish are great, right out of the box. You can't go wrong with a HITZER 50-93. The D.S. Machine Circulator can also be doweled up some. They appear to be another well engineered stove, with no fan what so ever. Some items, for example, the doors are not as robust as the HITZER, but still not cheep. I think the HITZER is better looking, but the D.S. look grows on ya. I'm going to play with a D.S. Circulator stove next winter. I would be able to tell you more about the DS. performance then.

lsayre wrote:the Keystoker HFH-90 Hopper doesn't have (to my memory at least) openings in the double wall for convection to occur without the aid of the blower, and I really don't want the blower option. I'm still conflicted, as a rep from Keystoker told me it works just fine without the blower option.

Our DS Machine 1300 circulator does sit in an ell off one corner of the living room, but my wife has never called it handsome or pretty. I believe "ugly" is the term she uses.

The Keystoker HFH-70/90 sure looks pretty on their web site, with pleasant colors available, even a glass top if you want it. I'm sure my wife would swap the DSM for the Keystoker in a flash. But would that be too much heat for where you would install it?

Is the double wall on the sides, or just the back, or back and top like the Harman Mark 1/2/3? The HFH-70/90 comes with only a 45 CFM blower, which is remarkably small for a stove claiming 90K BTU -- so maybe it really does not rely very much on the blower. Unfortunately stove showrooms tend to be big and noisy, so it might be hard to judge how intrusive the fan actually would sound in your house.

rberq wrote:Is the double wall on the sides, or just the back, or back and top like the Harman Mark 1/2/3? The HFH-70/90 comes with only a 45 CFM blower, which is remarkably small for a stove claiming 90K BTU -- so maybe it really does not rely very much on the blower. Unfortunately stove showrooms tend to be big and noisy, so it might be hard to judge how intrusive the fan actually would sound in your house.

The HFH-90 is double walled on the sides and back as far as I can tell. I would not get the blower option in the first place as I don't want a blower, so I would never know how loud they might be. I agree that a 45 CFM blower is hardly going to accomplish much.