plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: bowman On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:34 am

what is the best way to plumb my coal stoker? should i bypass my oil boiler or included it? i will be installing keystoker kaa-2 with a domestic coil
bowman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: none yet

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:06 am

I have had the pleasure of lively chat regarding this just down the page a bit at
How to plumb a Harman vf3000 Boiler

Pictures of your current system - show your pumps, controls, return and supply near the boiler, and a couple of wide shots from several angles will help get you some lucid advice!

But you have plenty of time till next heating season - no rush! Can you thread pipe and wire some simple controls? Or will spec the job and hire a plumber?
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: bowman On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:32 am

Here are some pics. Hope they help.I have been reading how to plumb a Harman vf 3000 and it has made my head spin. I have heard that is more economical to heat one boiler rather than keep two boilers hot with one coal boiler. Is this true? I have a domestic coil in the coal boiler so hot water is not an issue.
IMG_0155.JPG
(137.02 KiB) Viewed 88 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]3659[/nepathumb]
IMG_0156.JPG
(135.7 KiB) Viewed 43 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]3660[/nepathumb]
IMG_0157.JPG
(148.52 KiB) Viewed 53 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]3661[/nepathumb]
bowman
 
Stove/Furnace Make: none yet

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: 1975gt750 On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:17 pm

i too just installed a kaa-2 coil boiler with my oil burner. i plumed mine in series with my oil burner and i am using all my controls from my oil burner to run the coal boiler. i did have to make a relay box to seperate my zones but other than that it works great and if the coal dies the oil will take over. as for heat loss throught the oil burner i would not even worry about you could even install a electric damper to stop any heat going up the chimney.i have plenty of pic if you are interested

chris
1975gt750
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: keystoker kaa-2
Coal Size/Type: rice coal / blaschak
Other Heating: pensotti oil boiler with riello 40 burner
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: kaa-2

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:22 pm

Lets just move one step at a time - drink heavily - and blame the head spin on the Jack or the 151 - I recently was bestowed a bottle of Dewar's 12 year old - it takes the pain away nicely!

Now you have the perfect opportunity to heat in series as you or your plumber made provision for new zones. There is a nice plugged branch available on both the supply and return. If you did something on the supply side of the current boiler to stop thermal siphon you could use these to hook to the supply and return of the new coal boiler. Thermal siphon to your zones may already be in place if those zone pumps on the load returns have check valves - post their model and serial number of go the the manufactures web site and look at their specs. But if you series heat that thermal siphon protection will be defeated and your house will overrun thermostat set point.

BUT WAIT ---also note picture two - there is no automatic damper on the oil boiler so the chimney will continue to pull draft off the oil boiler as the coal boiler is trying to keep it hot - or heat it to supply the load depending on how you control both. Big energy loss!!! Again if fuel is cheep - you may not care!

So there are a couple of pit falls to the simplest approach - but as I have been chastised in the other thread - when fuel is cheep - the simplest route is the quickest return on investment. Simply piping into these two plugged ports offers a quick and dirty solution. If you want better lets chat more!

I question the two smoke pipes into the one chimney chase - I would suggest not venting an oil appliance and a coal appliance on the same stack. Yes it can be done - but its not to code and if the hose dragger's come to visit we don't want any excuse that the home owners insurance can use to deny claim!

Oh I won't try to sell you any books - but you may find them interesting and at the library if you make a special request!
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:50 pm

One question. Should't the heat loss up the chimney issue be dealt with as part of the existing boiler control package? It is the same loss using coal or oil. Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:56 pm

yes

but

Since the oil boiler is not maintaining a non condensing idle fire temperature - the thermal loss up the stack is not as great and the thermal siphon loss to the zones is also not significant - but the cost of that stack loss is enough that an automated Effical would benefit the appliance economy.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Steve.N On: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:14 am

I agree with hooking up your boilers like Sting suggests. I have an HS Tarm gasification boiler connected to my oil boiler just that way and it works great. Before you buy an expensive auto stack damper for the oil furnace though check the burner. Your oil unit looks fairly new, newer than mine at least. My burner is a Becket AFS model and it has a damper built into the fan section. Becket calls it a fan shunt and there is a sticker on the outside of the housing stating that. I used a piece of smoking rope to see if there was draft through the burner and there wasn't
Steve.N
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman mkII
Stove/Furnace Model: Axeman Anderson 260 at store

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:05 pm

Gas burners usually have a stack damper, oil generally burners do not. They should work on either if it is an issue.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:52 am

So would't this be the perfect situation for a close tee deal across the supply and return as it is allready setup for it? That and a boilermate? ;) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:36 am

You do a close tee deal across the return (not both supply and return) of the existing system, because there is less to hack into to install a second boiler - and you have a primary and secondary boiler. If you cut into both the supply and the return of the existing system you most likely are building a series boiler system. Take the existing boiler off the house supply and returns - build a well insulated primary loop in place of it- then place two boilers on that loop with close spaced tees - with the house fed energy off that loop also on close spaced tees with thermal traps and you have a good P/S system with parallel boilers. :lol:
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: beatle78 On: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:44 am

1975gt750 wrote:i too just installed a kaa-2 coil boiler with my oil burner. i plumed mine in series with my oil burner and i am using all my controls from my oil burner to run the coal boiler. i did have to make a relay box to seperate my zones but other than that it works great and if the coal dies the oil will take over. as for heat loss throught the oil burner i would not even worry about you could even install a electric damper to stop any heat going up the chimney.i have plenty of pic if you are interested

chris


Chris,

Can You explain why you needed the relay box? I was under the impression that all you need to do is plumb the two boilers in series (coal supply into oil return) and do nothing else. The aqustat on the coal boiler will control it's temp and the rest of the system has no idea that the coal boiler is evern there....

Did I forget about something?
beatle78
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: 1975gt750 On: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:30 am

the reason for the realy box is that at my house i have three seperate zones with three seperate circulators and the thermostats. the coal boiler only have one input for the thermostat and i had three. so i made a realy box similar to a zone valve controler. and the way it works is i have three 110 vlots relay conected to the circulator so when the zone calls for heat it energizes the realy which then close the contact in the coil boiler aquastat and it starts stoking. when i first hooked up the coal boiler i had no thermostat input to the coal boiler i was just running off the high and low limits and it was not working to good. the reason was it would not stoke any coal until it reached the low limit of 160 and by that point the temerature was still droping and it took a very long time to recover. now when it calls for heat it will strat stoking as soon as it calls for heat as long as the temp is below the high limit of 180.now i have no more exstream temperature swings. you have to remember coal is a solid fuel and it does not react like oil and gas it takes a wile to get going it is not instant.
1975gt750
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: keystoker kaa-2
Coal Size/Type: rice coal / blaschak
Other Heating: pensotti oil boiler with riello 40 burner
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: kaa-2

Re: plumb in oil boiler or bypass it

PostBy: gregolma On: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:09 am

Consider the different fuels as separate systems. Plumb the system with a pump that runs all the time. Each boiler should pump into the main circuit. It's called primary/secondary pumping. Then use separate thermostats.
gregolma
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 1980 Anthratube 130

Visit Lehigh Anthracite