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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sat. May. 16, 2015 11:33 pm

Don, I think you means Coal Crackers!

Aw dern, I hitted the top of the page.

-Don


 
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Post by SWPaDon » Sat. May. 16, 2015 11:37 pm

pineyguy wrote:I'm not sure she knew the whole scope of what she was marrying beforehand.

I was worried about the draft with such a short stack, but it's burning surprisingly well. It's a very even burn, if that makes sense. Lots of rogue air leaking in, so I thought if it did burn, I'd have to close the ash door, but it's really staying nice. I do have the mpd closed about 3/4 to try and hold more heat in. I'm not educated on the fire side of locomotives, but they have a pretty short stack and can heat up without moving, so I figured the short chimney at least had a chance.
It all makes sense to me. :)

 
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Post by pineyguy » Sat. May. 16, 2015 11:40 pm

Oros35- my buddy's argument was that keeping the jacket temp up would keep the fire happy (I don't have an engineering hat, so that's my best description.) I was thinking that even if the fire wasn't burning at its best, you still only get so much heat transfer through cast iron, so even if the fire was raging, anything excess of thst would just go out the exhaust anyway. Low and slow was exactly how I tried to explain it. Is that correct, or would less water flow/more fire/heat inside the chamber work better in your opininion? We did try various configurations, but without some reliable, concrete temp and flow numbers, we were more or less shooting in the dark anyway.

Edit- I reread your post. Basically keep the outside cool, the inside hot as possible, and don't let one interfere with the other. I think I need some instrumentation.

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. May. 17, 2015 12:05 am

You have about a 12 zillion gallon pool and a boiler that is no more than 50,000BTU and about 20 gallons or so. You can run the little boiler flat out and it will never get the pool temp over 100 degrees.

Just don't ever shut that pump off while the boiler has a fire in it!

-Don

 
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Post by joeq » Sun. May. 17, 2015 10:14 am

StokerDon wrote:Don, I think you means Coal Crackers!

Aw dern, I hitted the top of the page.

-Don
ImageNow you know how I feel Don. (Good one)

 
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Post by Lightning » Sun. May. 17, 2015 11:23 am

DUDE! I love the pool heater. I gotta do something like this, Of course my wife would freak a little. What a great excuse to burn coal in the summer. I'm so jealous :lol: I like your line of thinking and although I don't have an engineer hat, I'll share some of my views about what makes sense to me.
pineyguy wrote:Oros35- my buddy's argument was that keeping the jacket temp up would keep the fire happy
I don't know what to think of this. The base burner guys say that keeping the fire insulated makes it burn more efficiently, so it seems to makes sense that if you keep the boiler hot you'll get the same result. My opinion, not likely in a boiler situation since if you ran the water at 200 degrees, it's still cold compared to the coal fire.
pineyguy wrote:I was thinking that even if the fire wasn't burning at its best, you still only get so much heat transfer through cast iron, so even if the fire was raging, anything excess of thst would just go out the exhaust anyway. Low and slow was exactly how I tried to explain it.
I'm with ya on this one. There will be a point of best efficiency between the burn rate and heat transfer thru the cast iron. Running hard would start to exceed the transfer rate and send more heat up the stack.
pineyguy wrote:Is that correct, or would less water flow/more fire/heat inside the chamber work better in your opininion?
I think this scenario would yield the least efficient results. With water flow, you just need enough to move the heat from point A to point B. Flow rate shouldn't be a huge factor since there are only so many BTUs to work with. You can raise a big volume of water by 3 degrees OR a small volume of water by 25 degrees but both take the same amount of BTUs. Once that water is back in the pool it will have the same heating effect on it since it transported the same amount of BTUs. I think a medium burn, with prit near whatever water volume flow that you liked, would produce best results per pound of coal burned. Personally, I would use a flow rate that lifts the return water to the pool by 10 degrees, 15 degrees at the most.

 
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Post by pineyguy » Sun. May. 17, 2015 1:48 pm

Thanks, my wife really likes the warmed pool, just not the "ugly thing in the yard." I can fix that by building something atound it. I went in today, and it was a good temperature. The floaty thermometer said 75, so it didn't really gain anything overnight, but it held (and it rained for a bit.) The last time I added coal was about 6pm yesterday and the fire is still going now. I had my daughter try some different valve configurations while I was inside by the return, and I couldn't tell any difference in the incoming water temp whether the mixing valve was shut or thtottled. It is definitely noticeably warmer though. I'm going to let it burn out today, then try it again next Friday morning when I get off nightshift. I'm still going to try to convince the boss that we should try the natural circulation idea and see if we can burn it and get some flow without the pump. Basically just a relatively high riser angled back into the pool, prime it with the pump and see if it'll circulate on its own. That was my original idea, but it got nixed.


 
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Post by Lightning » Sun. May. 17, 2015 2:18 pm

Really, I definitely think you can get a natural convection to happen without the pump on. Try it. Same principle as my preheated tank for my DHW. Try to make the flow as easy as possible with your diverter valve open and pump off. You'll wanna monitor temp. As long as it don't boil you'll be golden.

 
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Post by just peter » Sun. May. 17, 2015 4:50 pm

I think you have too much internal resistance in the pump and in the filter to get a natural flow.
That said maby there is enough waterweigth to let it run.
I like your set up with the water heater, and even if you use the pump you have warm water in the pool for a low cost. :D

Peter.

 
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Post by pineyguy » Sun. May. 17, 2015 6:32 pm

My plan was to tee the pump suction and tie it into the manifold going to the bottom of the heater so it could be set up for either high or low pressure operation. I got all the stuff I need to do it, so maybe now that we know it works with the pressure method, I'll revisit the issue.....or wait until I'm off work and she's not, and just beg forgiveness when she sees it.

 
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Post by dlj » Sun. May. 17, 2015 11:26 pm

Not sure you'll get good results with natural convection flow. You would need to have 1/4" per foot run from the top of your stove to the inlet on your pool - no down-hills, dips or wiggles is best. You'd want very few restrictions, but you have filters and such. Natural convection systems also tend to use large diameter piping... Certainly give it a try, make sure you don't start making steam in your stove, it might not handle that well...

How much flow and temp difference in the stove probably can't be answered. You'll just have to experiment and see what works best on your set-up. I think the 10 degree temperature rise from inlet to outlet sounds like a good place to start. Good luck and keep us posted. I just love your set-up!

dj

 
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Post by oros35 » Mon. May. 18, 2015 12:21 am

I think your on the right track.

I would get a nice fire where the heat output is good but draft isn't so much that your stack temp is very high. Low and slow. Then play with the water feed till it feels good. Lower flow is better than too much.

If the piping is set up right you should get natural circulation no problem. Half of my antique tractors are 'thermosyphon' type, no water pump. Same idea on your pool, heat engine and a heat sink. As long as you don't have too much restriction and can get enough temperature difference between the inlet and outlet it will start flowing.

 
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Post by pineyguy » Mon. May. 18, 2015 11:06 am

Thanks for all the advice and comments, guys.
dlj wrote:Not sure you'll get good results with natural convection flow. You would need to have 1/4" per foot run from the top of your stove to the inlet on your pool
Could you explain that a little more? I'm not following. As it sits now, if I add the pump/filter bypass, the stove inlet will be about 11' (straight shot) from the pool. The top (discharge) of the stove is about level with the water level of the pool (the top fitting is, the pipe is above), and maybe about 9' from the pool. Are you saying 1/4" height difference per foot of length between where the water leaves the stove and enters the pool? There are alot of elevation changes back there, and I can move the stove pretty much anywhere that'd help, I just put it where it is for convenience, and so I could reuse the hoses I already had instead of buying new.

 
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Post by ddahlgren » Mon. May. 18, 2015 12:11 pm

If you raise it up a couple of feet on a small cement block footing it sure would be easier to tend the fire. For gravity circulation to work I would think the boiler needs to be below the poor as it will not draw water but will circulate if it has a head pressure from the weight of the water. You will still need the pump for the filter so might as well use it and not worry about gravity though it does add a ton of safety if power goes out.

 
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Post by dlj » Tue. May. 19, 2015 2:54 pm

From where the hot outlet on your stove is you would want the piping to rise 1\4 of an inch for every foot of linear distance traveled arriving to your pool. You want the run to be as straight as possible to avoid restrictions. In gravity fed systems there are elbows and such but they are always tried to be as few as possible. You try to avoid down hill dips. The cold water return should go into the bottom of your stove. Given you are heating an open pool, the return line isn't as critical as the hot line out but it always helps to have few restrictions s to flow. Did this help?

dj


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