Small Off Grid Solar System ... I'm Taking the Solar Plunge

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21781
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Sat. May. 23, 2015 7:29 am

McGiever wrote:Larry, Where will the excess power generated by solar go during those time periods after the batteries have become fully charged?
Must you manually switch the load(s) upon loss of utility power?
The excess power is lost. Manual switching. I'm doing this on the cheap.


 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sat. May. 23, 2015 7:36 am

Will wifey be comfortable doing the "switch" if you are not home during the outage?

 
User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 10130
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Sat. May. 23, 2015 7:43 am

lsayre wrote:
McGiever wrote:Larry, Where will the excess power generated by solar go during those time periods after the batteries have become fully charged?
Must you manually switch the load(s) upon loss of utility power?
The excess power is lost. Manual switching. I'm doing this on the cheap.
Something to consider...For little up front cost, you can buy 12-24 volt screw-in immersion water heating elements to store excess solar watts for latter use as stored hot water. Then during extended times with loss of grid power you will find out that (free) hot water is a precious commodity. :idea:

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21781
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Sat. May. 23, 2015 9:03 am

scalabro wrote:Will wifey be comfortable doing the "switch" if you are not home during the outage?
There is a reason why the cost is so low. My initial foray is with a simple budget "plug in" inverter. It is however a "pure sine wave" output inverter. Whatever we are running off of it will need to be plugged directly into this inverter to operate. No connection to the existing house wiring will be legally possible or attempted for this inverter unit. It has only 2 x 120VAC outlets, and a maximum sustained output (rated at least, and doubtful in reality) of 12.5 amps (1,500 Watts) at 120 VAC. So there is only so much that we will be able to do with it to begin with. Plug the frig into one outlet and the deep freezer into the other outlet and that will be about it. Unplug one or the other of the refrigeration units to plug in lights, run a computer, or to use the current for any other limited and temporary use.

Peukert's Law assures that only so much sustained output is possible for the batteries, and that far less peak demand will be possible. Peukert's Equation pretty much ruins everything. The more demand you place upon the batteries the less effective amp hours of reserve they really have. Things are definitely not linear when it comes to batteries. That's what Peukert's great discovery was. Per Peukert my 350 AH battery bank will deliver a sustained 4.1 amps (492 Watts) for 24 hours and then be at 50% capacity. But for 12.5 amps (1,500 Watts) of draw you only get 5 hours to 50% discharge.

I did watch a YouTube video of a guy with the same inverter running his shop vac and his microwave off of it with no issues (one at a time), and both were pulling about 1,000 Watts. So at least its good for that level of output. Our microwave draws a measured 1,350 Watts at power level 10. It will be interesting to see if this inverter will trip on that sort of load.

 
User avatar
Freddy
Member
Posts: 7293
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Orrington, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Post by Freddy » Sat. May. 23, 2015 10:36 am

OK.... I'm see now that you understand what you're doing! *smile* For sure, the one big advantage that a battery system has is that it automatically and instantly kicks in to keep things running when the power goes out.

As for the system that you are building, it sounds like you will be running a freezer with the hope that the solar will keep up...(and it could).... but you'll keep your eye on it & if the batteries get low you'll manually switch so the freezer will be powered by the grid?

With a simple relay (the relay is simple, wrapping your brain around wiring it confuses me every time) you could have the freezer run off the grid and automatically be powered by the batteries if the power goes down. Of course that would defeat the seeing if the solar can do it 100%.

Someone asked what happens to the extra power if the batteries are charged. Nothing! It just "evaporates". It does no hard to a solar panel if it's not connected to anything. I think your controller will disconnect when the batteries are full and at that point, you use it as it's produced, or lose it. Whole house off grid people save their laundry for sunny days & aim to wash & dry after the batteries are full & the sun is shining.

Yup.... either way you have to have a generator. To power your house when the power is down, or to charge the batteries when you get day after day of no sunshine. The worst thing for a battery is to sit in a state of discharge. (Well. not exactly....the worrrrrst thing is to let Smitty own one, but that's a whole 'nuther story. <evil grin>

Forward you go! Have fun!

 
User avatar
SMITTY
Member
Posts: 12520
Joined: Sun. Dec. 11, 2005 12:43 pm
Location: West-Central Mass
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 Highboy
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Post by SMITTY » Sat. May. 23, 2015 10:44 am

Me and battery acid ... What could go wrong? toothy toothy toothy

 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8110
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Sat. May. 23, 2015 12:16 pm

I'll be looking forward to your results, especially down the road in 6 months and a year.

Wow, a new stove and new solar :) Nothing like new toys.


 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21781
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Sat. May. 23, 2015 1:13 pm

For me to be serious about going completely off grid solar would require 24 x 260 Watt solar panels and at least a 6,000 Watt x 48V inverter/charger and a 48V battery bank with at least 1,350 AH capacity (plus 2 x very expensive MPPT charge controllers) and a 15,000 Watt diesel generator. I had a quote of $33,000 for such a system (minus the generator) installed to code by a certified installer, inspected, and permitted.

Therefore I'm not serious.

If I lived somewhere that was so remote that the cost of bringing grid service to the house was $50,000 or more I might be serious though.

 
User avatar
davidmcbeth3
Member
Posts: 8505
Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra

Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sat. May. 23, 2015 8:30 pm

SMITTY wrote:Me and battery acid ... What could go wrong? toothy toothy toothy
I had a dispensing tube come off of a jug dispenser of conc. sulfuric .... 20+ yrs ago .. shot right up my arm through a gap in the slack of a lab coat. 20 ml .... it did not cause any pain until I washed it off ... then the heat of mixing kicked in ... yowzaa !

Can still see the scarring .... the chicks dig it.

 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8110
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Sat. May. 23, 2015 10:31 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
SMITTY wrote:Me and battery acid ... What could go wrong? toothy toothy toothy
I had a dispensing tube come off of a jug dispenser of conc. sulfuric .... 20+ yrs ago .. shot right up my arm through a gap in the slack of a lab coat. 20 ml .... it did not cause any pain until I washed it off ... then the heat of mixing kicked in ... yowzaa !

Can still see the scarring .... the chicks dig it.
Been there done that! Worse was when I was cleaning a paint gun with some chemical I cant remember and it spilled on the ground where my knee was. I was wearing a paint suit, with pants on under it. I kept cleaning the gun and then my knee started burning bad, and worse by the second . I took off for the house, throwing my paint mask, ripping off the suit, losing my pants before I got to the door on the way to my shower.... sure glad nobody drove by seeing that, LOL

Back to subject: Theres a reason we don't see solar and wind generators everywhere and that is the expense of them. Its too bad too. Imagine how much it would save on the power grid if everyone had a similar system to what you are installing.

 
User avatar
Scottscoaled
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: Tue. Jan. 08, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Malta N.Y.
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520, 700, Van Wert 800 GJ 61,53
Baseburners & Antiques: Magic Stewart 16, times 2!
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck
Other Heating: Slant Fin electric boiler backup

Post by Scottscoaled » Sun. May. 24, 2015 11:43 am

Oh boy! Scar showing and story telling!!!!!!!! Who's buying the beer? Hahahaha. Just a sober thought. When I was going to put together a system, I looked into forklift batteries. A friend could get them easily enough. What the problem ended up being that didn't make it work out was that batteries can only be charged and discharged so many times. Forklift batteries were only good for 300 charges or so ( I'm not sure how accurate that number is.) before they are taken out of service. I would make sure that your batteries wouldn't fall into the same category. Your system would end up needing new batteries every year if that was so. The batteries that you are planning on using, are they the ones that are used for powering emergency lights?

 
User avatar
davidmcbeth3
Member
Posts: 8505
Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra

Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. May. 24, 2015 12:00 pm

Scottscoaled wrote:Oh boy! Scar showing and story telling!!!!!!!! Who's buying the beer? Hahahaha. Just a sober thought. When I was going to put together a system, I looked into forklift batteries. A friend could get them easily enough. What the problem ended up being that didn't make it work out was that batteries can only be charged and discharged so many times. Forklift batteries were only good for 300 charges or so ( I'm not sure how accurate that number is.) before they are taken out of service. I would make sure that your batteries wpoptopstouldn't fall into the same category. Your system would end up needing new batteries every year if that was so. The batteries that you are planning on using, are they the ones that are used for powering emergency lights?
Batteries in PlV systems are usually marine batteries or forklift ones ... marine ones? ~100 cycles last I can recall ....

The new Tesla ones also have a limited life span...seen where folks estimate 3 yrs out of one .. $3500 for 3 yrs? Not a good deal.

Save energy w/o batteries ? Maybe hydrolysis of H2O and save the gases? A long term thing. Then burn H2 for heat or food cooking or make a blimp !

poopoopoppopopopopopop

popopopopopsopsopsops

im really bad at spelling

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21781
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Sun. May. 24, 2015 12:22 pm

The Rolls 4500 Series Model S-500EX battery (specs : 6V, 357 AH) is tested to deliver (on average) 2,720 cycles at 50% discharge.

http://rollsbattery.com/public/specsheets/S-500EX.pdf

Of course you will pay about $600 per battery for these, but sometimes you get what you pay for. I can't afford them at that price level though. And their 5000 series is far better, but at additional cost.

 
User avatar
Lightning
Site Moderator
Posts: 14659
Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Olean, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Modified AA 130
Coal Size/Type: Pea Size - Anthracite

Post by Lightning » Sun. May. 24, 2015 12:34 pm

Seems like car batteries last 4-5 years sometimes more. What's wrong with using those?

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21781
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Sun. May. 24, 2015 12:35 pm

Lightning wrote:Seems like car batteries last 4-5 years sometimes more. What's wrong with using those?
No ability to be repeatedly deep discharged. 12 volt, so not much capacity. Very thin plates.
Last edited by lsayre on Sun. May. 24, 2015 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Post Reply

Return to “Wood, Pellets, Gas, Oil, Geothermal & Other Heating Types”