Small Off Grid Solar System ... I'm Taking the Solar Plunge

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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Jun. 05, 2015 11:38 pm

lsayre wrote:I ordered my 40 AMP 24 Volt battery charger (rectifier, converter) today. When it arrives another piece of the puzzle will have been completed.
keeping under the 3K target? Sun is shining now LOL


 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Jun. 06, 2015 2:07 am

davidmcbeth3 wrote:keeping under the 3K target? Sun is shining now LOL
Still within the budget. Can't understand why I'm getting the perception that this entire endeavor is upsetting you...

http://ltdrvparts.com/PROGRESSIVE-DYNAMICS-40-AMP ... 240-24.htm

PS: Before I ordered mine this websites stock flag said "In Stock", and now they have changed it to read "Out of Stock". Hope they actually had one and it will not be delayed.... Not seriously in a hurry though. Just as for the purchase of the coal boiler and then for the coal stove I've been planning this for multiple years now. When money is involved I try to never never move too rashly. And I won't rush to install it either....

 
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Post by warminmn » Sat. Jun. 06, 2015 8:33 am

That must be the last electronic part that is still made in the USA!

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sat. Jun. 06, 2015 7:36 pm

lsayre wrote:
davidmcbeth3 wrote:keeping under the 3K target? Sun is shining now LOL
Still within the budget. Can't understand why I'm getting the perception that this entire endeavor is upsetting you...

http://ltdrvparts.com/PROGRESSIVE-DYNAMICS-40-AMP ... 240-24.htm

PS: Before I ordered mine this websites stock flag said "In Stock", and now they have changed it to read "Out of Stock". Hope they actually had one and it will not be delayed.... Not seriously in a hurry though. Just as for the purchase of the coal boiler and then for the coal stove I've been planning this for multiple years now. When money is involved I try to never never move too rashly. And I won't rush to install it either....
Not upsetting me at all ..be interested in the results :)

Sun is shining though, now is the time to get er-done. Wait till winter and you'll say "hey, is my system working?"

And I have had some websites where I order from did the same....took the order then after I contacted them later they said "back-ordered" -- that's when you cancel the order, don't let them get the $$$. So I'd call them...they won't call you...if they don't have the product then cancel the order is my advice.

 
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Post by SWPaDon » Sat. Jun. 06, 2015 11:48 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote: Not upsetting me at all ..be interested in the results :)

Sun is shining though, now is the time to get er-done. Wait till winter and you'll say "hey, is my system working?"

And I have had some websites where I order from did the same....took the order then after I contacted them later they said "back-ordered" -- that's when you cancel the order, don't let them get the $$$. So I'd call them...they won't call you...if they don't have the product then cancel the order is my advice.
Been there, done that. Cancel immediately if they backordered you (after saying it was available), might be a year or more before they get it..................'if' they ever do.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 1:01 am

SWPaDon wrote:
davidmcbeth3 wrote: Not upsetting me at all ..be interested in the results :)

Sun is shining though, now is the time to get er-done. Wait till winter and you'll say "hey, is my system working?"

And I have had some websites where I order from did the same....took the order then after I contacted them later they said "back-ordered" -- that's when you cancel the order, don't let them get the $$$. So I'd call them...they won't call you...if they don't have the product then cancel the order is my advice.
Been there, done that. Cancel immediately if they backordered you (after saying it was available), might be a year or more before they get it..................'if' they ever do.
hey just discussing ROI with the guy and advising him that if he actually calc, it out, he would find out its a bad deal.

Some people don't worry about ROI and want to try new technology anyway. I can dig it.

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 8:53 am

Maybe some are not looking at this endeavor in the proper context. This is a "off grid" installation...ROI will not be a determining factor. Same as would be with one's back-up generator ...sheeze! :roll:


 
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Post by Lightning » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 8:58 am

McGiever wrote:Maybe some are not looking at this endeavor in the proper context. This is a "off grid" installation...ROI will not be a determining factor. Same as would be with one's back-up generator ...sheeze! :roll:
Just count how many times it saves from food spoilage.
That will give it some perspective 8-)

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 9:29 am

My off grid emergency back-up system will remain completely separate and isolated from my grid system. There is no thought of back-feeding to the grid, or of back-feeding to the house (as is typical for generators) in any way shape or form. There is no consideration being given to a transfer switch, either manual or automatic.

ROI will be measured in hobby like enjoyment, learning, and the peace of mind that when the grid goes down I can run things off of sun power (and/or sun power stored in batteries during the night and when there isn't much if any sun due to clouds) while others are messing with highly inefficient, short lived, and potentially dangerous generators and their costly fuel, or simply going without electricity.

And in-between power outages I can use the power (roughly 2.6 KWH daily on average for where I live and with my small system, after accounting for all of the various system inefficiencies I can think of) as I wish for up to 365 days out of the year. Try doing the equivalent of that with a generator and then get back to me regarding its ROI.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 10:18 am

Here is how I figured out what my 4 x 260 Watt panel (module) system should be nominally "real world" capable of:

4.03 average daily insolation (sun hours equivalent as STC) hours for my location, and more specifically for fixed panels mounted at latitude angle.

4.03 sun_hours/day x 260 Watts/sun_hour x 4 panels= 4,191 Watts/day under perfect STC test rating conditions, and with no other system losses

Panels "real world" rated efficiency (their PTC rating as opposed to STC)= 90.6%
Battery Charge Controller efficiency = 96.5%
Battery efficiency = 84%
Inverter efficiency = 88% (its a cheap one)
Wire losses = 2% (allowing 98% passage)

Summing it all up I get:

4,191 x 0.906 x 0.965 x 0.84 x 0.88 x 0.98 = 2,654 Watts per day = 2.654 KW per day
Last edited by lsayre on Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by Lightning » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 10:28 am

lsayre wrote:2.654 KW per day
Wow.. at 15 cents per Kilowatt that's about $12 worth of power per month. Kinda a bummer to look at it that way but if it can cover the necessities during an outage I can see it's value.. :)

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 10:30 am

Lightning wrote:
lsayre wrote:2.654 KW per day
Wow.. at 15 cents per Kilowatt that's about $12 worth of power per month. Kinda a bummer to look at it that way but if it can cover the necessities during an outage I can see it's value.. :)
Calculate the typical generator based cost to daily manufacture 2.654 KW for a full year and then make the comparison. That is the only real way that I would be able to consider the solar systems ROI value. The ROI value (if there is one) is not solar vs. grid, it is solar vs. generator.

Consider in doing so that (if you are extremely lucky) 30% of your generators fuel BTU's will become electricity. 3,412 BTU's = 1 KW

2.654 KW = 9,055 BTU's

9,055 BTU's as output / 0.30 = 30,183 BTU's as input

That's about 1/3 of a gallon of propane per 2.654 KW. Or about 0.22 gallons of Diesel Fuel per 2.654 KW. Or about 0.26 gallons of gasoline per 2.654 KW. And my initial guess would be that in the "real world" you can multiply these figures by a factor of about 1.5.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 11:52 am

Regarding generators, it's worse than I thought. 13% to 18% efficient for the Honda line (and you can bet theirs are among the very best).
I happened across a spec sheet for Honda portable generators up to 6 kilowatts. According to my math, they convert between 13% and 18% of the power in gasoline into electrical energy, when running at their “rated load,” usually about 10% lower than their maximum load.

The gasoline-powered generators produce at best 6.13 kilowatt-hours per gallon of fuel, at worst 4.42, and a median of 5.7.
https://settysoutham.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/por ... er-plants/

This ballparks to about a half gallon of gasoline per 2.654 KW of electricity. And that's when they are making an optimal level of electricity. Just think about their efficiency when they are merely idling. Hint, it is zero percent (but then again, it's the same zero percent story for solar panels when they are basking in the sun but their associated battery bank is already full).

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 1:08 pm

Lightning wrote:
lsayre wrote:2.654 KW per day
Wow.. at 15 cents per Kilowatt that's about $12 worth of power per month. Kinda a bummer to look at it that way but if it can cover the necessities during an outage I can see it's value.. :)
It would be 15 cents per kilowatt hour .... assume its used in 1 hr ...

2.65 KHW = about half a buck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing ... europe.jpg

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Jun. 07, 2015 3:10 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote:It would be 15 cents per kilowatt hour .... assume its used in 1 hr ...

2.65 KHW = about half a buck.
Not for gasoline, diesel, or propane. You still don't get it. :)


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