Concealed Carry

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:09 am

samhill wrote:Then technically you could carry an M-60 with a full can of ammo or anything else around with you all day. Be careful what you wish for, there are a lot of loose cannons that can go off for little reason & they walk among us. ;)


I think Sam is right. Like mayor Koch he seems to be a liberal blessed with common sense.

Cities are a different environment from the usual suburban and rural communities that we can understand. They are chock full of the same frustrations to human development that has led to the appearance of ISIS in another part of the world. The same potential is there for similar behaviour and unrestricted guns is sure to bring it out in the cities.

A city like NY was also a major manufacturing center; just over the East River was Long Island City which was designed as an industrial center and lower Manhattan was full of machines punching out things. There was opportunity no matter an intellectual or educational level. A place to work out basic human urges and desires, to be a part, to belong. Isolation is a harsh punishment. Give your dog food and water but chain him in the basement and guess what will happen when he can no longer be a dog.

All that began to disappear after WWll and with it opportunity for a great many. Liberal government could supply food and shelter but not food for the spirit. That need was increasingly met by the formation of gangs and the illegal drug trade. Opportunity for charlatans like Sharpton but few others, yet the outlet for frustration he represents is real.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea


Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:42 am

franco b wrote:
samhill wrote:Then technically you could carry an M-60 with a full can of ammo or anything else around with you all day. Be careful what you wish for, there are a lot of loose cannons that can go off for little reason & they walk among us. ;)


I think Sam is right. Like mayor Koch he seems to be a liberal blessed with common sense.

Cities are a different environment from the usual suburban and rural communities that we can understand. They are chock full of the same frustrations to human development that has led to the appearance of ISIS in another part of the world. The same potential is there for similar behaviour and unrestricted guns is sure to bring it out in the cities.

A city like NY was also a major manufacturing center; just over the East River was Long Island City which was designed as an industrial center and lower Manhattan was full of machines punching out things. There was opportunity no matter an intellectual or educational level. A place to work out basic human urges and desires, to be a part, to belong. Isolation is a harsh punishment. Give your dog food and water but chain him in the basement and guess what will happen when he can no longer be a dog.

All that began to disappear after WWll and with it opportunity for a great many. Liberal government could supply food and shelter but not food for the spirit. That need was increasingly met by the formation of gangs and the illegal drug trade. Opportunity for charlatans like Sharpton but few others, yet the outlet for frustration he represents is real.



At first glance, I agree, that looks like it could be an expected outcome. That's certainly been one of the oldest of knee-jerk cries of the gun control crowd to any attempts to allow being armed in public.

However, we've seen just the opposite. There are many examples where gun control and gun-free zones have lead to increases in gun violence.

And there many, many examples of allowing public carrying of a firearm has lowered all types of violent crime. Don't forget that Vermont, with a long history of no restrictions on legal carry, has large cities too and they have the lowest crime stats of any state. So any argument based on Sam's point doesn't hold water. The guy with the M-60 would very likely die quickly,...with tired arms. :D

So, think about how those short-tempered city people would act if they knew everyone around them was equally well armed.

There's an old saying that is being proven true all across the country as more and more states have been rolling back restrictions on legal carry.

That saying is, "A well armed society is a polite society." And there is overwhelming evidence to support that.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Logs On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:47 am

Sunnyboy
You are correct, if no one knows who is armed , this country would be a friendlier place
Logs
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby
Coal Size/Type: Nut anthracite
Other Heating: Fireplace and wood burner

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: cabinover On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:11 pm

samhill wrote:Then technically you could carry an M-60 with a full can of ammo or anything else around with you all day. Be careful what you wish for, there are a lot of loose cannons that can go off for little reason & they walk among us. ;)


Sam, an M-60 is a full auto machine gun. Very few folks have the $$ to afford them AND you must be specially permitted/licensed which is also expensive from my understanding. Let's not confuse them with a simple pistol or semi-auto rifle.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:23 pm

Sunny Boy wrote: The guy with the M-60 would very likely die quickly,...with tired arms.

So, think about how those short-tempered city people would act if they knew everyone around them was equally well armed.

There's an old saying that is being proven true all across the country as more and more states have been rolling back restrictions on legal carry.

That saying is, "A well armed society is a polite society." And there is overwhelming evidence to support that.


As always with your posts, well reasoned and good points and I agree completely, yet still disagree because I see a different scenario. Not the simple suppression of criminality, but of revolution in the large cities. i see the possibility of others joining that guy with the M60 rather than shooting him down if they are also armed.

Like Vermont NY State also has large upstate cities like Buffalo and maybe Rochester that don't seem to be trouble spots but still have NY gun control, so I am not sure if having or not having control is the answer. I don't think they can be compared to the really large cities like Los Angeles or NY, or Baltimore though.

Cities have evolved and that wealthy Wall Streeter no longer has a mansion on Fifth Ave, but more likely lives in Greenwich CT. In like fashion much of the middle class has also moved out and the poor and immigrants from other countries have moved in to take advantage of social benefits these cities offer. Jobs these people once worked have disappeared.

Solutions like better education have sunk in a welter of bureaucratic mismanagement that considers teacher benefits more important than those of students. In a frenzy of do goodism we have school bussing and charter schools that further destroy neighborhoods. Inhumanity in the name of being humane. Conditions that foster revolution and the very reason for the 2 nd. amendment which is to provide relief from oppressive government.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:41 pm

The large cities you site are all places with long-time very strict gun control, accompanied by some of the higher, if not at times the highest numbers of gun violence in the nation.

And our upstate NY cities also have their share of gun violence. It just doesn't get as wide national news coverage as the bigger cities that the major News Agencies are based in.

Here, close enough to Syracuse to get their local daily TV news, hardly a day goes by without reports of a shooting, or stabbing. The bad parts of Syracuse are just smaller versions of NYC with their share of high unemployment, gang, and drug related violence.

Remember, NYC's violent crime stats only dropped when Giuliani changed Police tactics and increased presence in high crime areas. Since that was stopped by anti-gun mayor Bloomberg, NYC's violent crime stats have been climbing back up.

What all the media attention on gun control laws has really accomplished is to educate and continually reassure the criminals that in those strictly gun controlled cities, they are the only ones protected by those laws. Those who chose to not obey gun control laws know full well that the odds of survival are heavily stacked in their favor because those laws only serve to disarm the law abiding.

So, no matter what size city you want to chose, or societal excuses for those cities' levels of gun violence, that truth is always the main reason why strict gun control laws fail at what they are intended to accomplish.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:01 pm

gun control or no gun control--the criminals will be just that--they far from work 9 to 5 jobs & will continue to not give a *censored*. Anyone that thinks different is just dreaming. Crime stats can easily be manipulated by the way.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:57 pm

freetown fred wrote:gun control or no gun control--the criminals will be just that--they far from work 9 to 5 jobs & will continue to not give a *censored*. Anyone that thinks different is just dreaming. Crime stats can easily be manipulated by the way.


Fred is right too.

Those big city riots are revolutions. I don't want them to turn into armed revolution.

Even Wyatt Earp thought it a good idea to disarm cowboys while in town.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea


Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:11 pm

samhill wrote:Then technically you could carry an M-60 with a full can of ammo or anything else around with you all day. Be careful what you wish for, there are a lot of loose cannons that can go off for little reason & they walk among us. ;)



I have no problem with others owning full auto. You can now just takes a $200 tax stamp and a lot for the firearm,
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:15 pm

Logs wrote:Sunnyboy
You are correct, if no one knows who is armed , this country would be a friendlier place

This is very true.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:16 pm

franco b wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote: The guy with the M-60 would very likely die quickly,...with tired arms.

So, think about how those short-tempered city people would act if they knew everyone around them was equally well armed.

There's an old saying that is being proven true all across the country as more and more states have been rolling back restrictions on legal carry.

That saying is, "A well armed society is a polite society." And there is overwhelming evidence to support that.


As always with your posts, well reasoned and good points and I agree completely, yet still disagree because I see a different scenario. Not the simple suppression of criminality, but of revolution in the large cities. i see the possibility of others joining that guy with the M60 rather than shooting him down if they are also armed.

Like Vermont NY State also has large upstate cities like Buffalo and maybe Rochester that don't seem to be trouble spots but still have NY gun control, so I am not sure if having or not having control is the answer. I don't think they can be compared to the really large cities like Los Angeles or NY, or Baltimore though.

Cities have evolved and that wealthy Wall Streeter no longer has a mansion on Fifth Ave, but more likely lives in Greenwich CT. In like fashion much of the middle class has also moved out and the poor and immigrants from other countries have moved in to take advantage of social benefits these cities offer. Jobs these people once worked have disappeared.

Solutions like better education have sunk in a welter of bureaucratic mismanagement that considers teacher benefits more important than those of students. In a frenzy of do goodism we have school bussing and charter schools that further destroy neighborhoods. Inhumanity in the name of being humane. Conditions that foster revolution and the very reason for the 2 nd. amendment which is to provide relief from oppressive government.


As always Franco you nailed it.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:56 pm

Where does the 2nd say anything about not having full auto? One could argue that if you interpret to 2nd to say that it gives one the right then all have that right. I did use a M-60 as a point along with "anything else" so lets say M-79 & lighten to load a bit, not full auto but an easy mass killing destructive weapon that saves the need of having to be a good shot. The ones that carry illegally now will just have a easier supply of weapons. I guess then they would have to make it so good guys with guns wear white hats & the bad ones black, the thing is there are no uniforms & in a panic mode everyone will be shooting at anyone or not shooting at all. How does a LEO know the good guy from the bad, many are killed by accident now & normally by I didn't know the gun was loaded types. What happens when a group of say white armed men are walking the opposite direction of a group of black armed men? What happens when someone zips into the parking space that you have been waiting for? IMO it just creates a totally hostile environment. No more Wal-Mart shopping for me! :wacko:
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:28 pm

franco b wrote:
freetown fred wrote:gun control or no gun control--the criminals will be just that--they far from work 9 to 5 jobs & will continue to not give a *censored*. Anyone that thinks different is just dreaming. Crime stats can easily be manipulated by the way.


Fred is right too.

Those big city riots are revolutions. I don't want them to turn into armed revolution.

Even Wyatt Earp thought it a good idea to disarm cowboys while in town.



I don't see that revolution happening, just alot of talk by frustrated people that there should be a revolution.

I saw far more unrest, riots, and "revolution" in cities way back in the 60's and 70's. And heard the same augments for pending doom. A lot of people were in even more of a panic that the "revolution" was going to spill out of the cities as society collapsed and those city dwellers went scouring the country side for food. Didn't happen, and it looked more likely to happen then than I see now.

As much as the inner cities are now worse, as much as people have less respect for and more frustration with each other, and as much as the media has played up all that, plus the riots in a few cities, it nothing near to what was happening across this country 40-to 50 years ago. Yet, the world didn't come to a stop.

Just like so many other predictions of gloom and doom such as, over population, running out of food, clean water,
clean air, the oceans would die from oil spills of petroleum,.... that we were going to run out of before it could kill the oceans anyway, the ozone layer would be gone and we'd be dead from radiation, etc.

People used to be more proactive about protesting during tough times. Now, it's easier to revolt from the comfort of their couch on social media.

No, I'm not worried about any pending revolts. We will still have localized riots in a few cities, but the days of big revolutions are gone, replaced with a smart phone and internet to placate the masses need to vent.

I'm more worried that people have become so overloaded with life becoming more and more complex every day that they have become immune to it all, tuning it out, and are becoming more willing than ever to put up with things they should probably revolt against.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:37 pm

samhill wrote:Where does the 2nd say anything about not having full auto? One could argue that if you interpret to 2nd to say that it gives one the right then all have that right. I did use a M-60 as a point along with "anything else" so lets say M-79 & lighten to load a bit, not full auto but an easy mass killing destructive weapon that saves the need of having to be a good shot. The ones that carry illegally now will just have a easier supply of weapons. I guess then they would have to make it so good guys with guns wear white hats & the bad ones black, the thing is there are no uniforms & in a panic mode everyone will be shooting at anyone or not shooting at all. How does a LEO know the good guy from the bad, many are killed by accident now & normally by I didn't know the gun was loaded types. What happens when a group of say white armed men are walking the opposite direction of a group of black armed men? What happens when someone zips into the parking space that you have been waiting for? IMO it just creates a totally hostile environment. No more Wal-Mart shopping for me! :wacko:


What's kept the bad guys from getting an M-60, or an M-79 up until now ?
Whatever it is, it wasn't restrictive gun control laws, so it will likely still keep them from getting them without those restrictive gun laws.

Maybe it's because the bad guys could buy alot of semi auto pistols and ammo for what an M-60 would cost, never mind the cost of feeding it at about a buck a round for 7.62 ball. Who needs over 30 pounds of weapon that eats $500.00 a minute, or more in ammo ? :shock:

And I don't think 40mm grenades are in stock at Cabela's. :roll:

Or, maybe it's just because they can't put a M-60, or even an M-79, in their pocket, even if they were Capt. Kangaroo. :D

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Concealed Carry

PostBy: bobok On: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:05 pm

I always get a kick out of the m60 or bazooka, or F16 in the front yard argument. The liberal/progressives are afraid of the 2nd's sole intent. To protect us from a tyrannical government. Why would you be afraid of a reponsible law-abliding citizen owning ANY weapon??
Commie Cuoma here in New York, like the tyrants (both sides ) in DC are afraid of the peasants they govern, rising up. Gun restrictions are the same as if the British had told the colonist they could only have pea shooters against their muskets. BoboK
bobok
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: efm700 stoker, Pacific 350K boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: D&S Machine hand fed
Coal Size/Type: stove / buck
Other Heating: Bethleham Dynatherm Oil boiler


cron