This Sound Good. Add on Boiler Piping Option.

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Tue. Jun. 23, 2015 10:38 am

Hello to all. It's been a long and busy winter. Now that the nice weather is here it's time to further better my heating system. Already got the oil burner and stoves ready for next season. I might be able to swing for a boiler this year so I was thinking about using closely spaced tees in the main house return line. I want easy. Really don't want to have to redo the oil boiler supply and return headers. Another option is isolate the main house to the future coal boiler and keep the hot water and breezeway zone on the oil boiler. They don't use much oil at all and it would keep the oil boiler exercised. See pictures. Thanks for any opinions suggestions. I'll be alone on this project because around here you mention coal and the HVAC guys run the other way. I do know a forum member that might help me out though.
Matt

coal stoker · Post by **coal stoker** » Tue. Jun. 23, 2015 7:27 pm

I think what your are saying will work, I am an Electrician by trade but have done my share of plumbing and also will be hooking up my EFM 520 in a similar way only I will be adding a ball valve in between the two tee's in order to divert the flow of the header through the coal boiler and also will be adding a Taco 007 to circulate the loop along with my zone circulators that are already in place.
Maybe some more Pics would get some of the other members started, it is a little hard to see what is going on with your system.
Good Luck
CS

blrman07 · Post by **blrman07** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 6:01 am

DePippo79 wrote:Hello to all. It's been a long and busy winter. Now that the nice weather is here it's time to further better my heating system. Already got the oil burner and stoves ready for next season. I might be able to swing for a boiler this year so I was thinking about using closely spaced tees in the main house return line. I want easy. Really don't want to have to redo the oil boiler supply and return headers. Another option is isolate the main house to the future coal boiler and keep the hot water and breezeway zone on the oil boiler. They don't use much oil at all and it would keep the oil boiler exercised. See pictures. Thanks for any opinions suggestions. I'll be alone on this project because around here you mention coal and the HVAC guys run the other way. I do know a forum member that might help me out though.
Matt

Is that 3/4 inch copper your planning to put your Tee's on? Where are you planning on them going?

Put your main load on the boiler that has the cheapest fuel but leave yourself the option of being able to switch back and forth as desired. I don't see how you can add a boiler and not tap the existing headers and get the operation your looking for. Maybe someone else can see it but my bleary eyes aint' seein it.

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 11:57 am

The vertical copper pipe is where I'm thinking about putting the closely spaced tees. Need to double check, but I think you need at least a 12 inch section for the tees. The pipe in question is one inch diameter. The vertical length of this pipe is 4 feet. Thinking a primary secondary concept. Maybe I need to re read my books. The return is part of the return header. There is nipples on the headers, but unfortunately there 3/4. To small to handle adding another boiler that way. My theory is the coal boiler circulator will circulate water through the tees and back, (built in bypass????) then when a thermostat calls for heat the main circulator and associated valve will circulate the heated water through the zone. I think Rob R. (moderator) uses tees. I could do a series or parallel system, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing all that by myself. More pics below. I'll try and scan a drawing of my piping idea. Thanks so far.
Matt

PS. Don't mind the plywood covering the cellar windows. Repainting, repairing and glazing originals and adding storms.

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 12:09 pm

Here's my idea on paper.
Matt

Post by **Rob R.** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 1:02 pm

Two tees in the return will work, It will not allow you to keep the oil boiler hot. That is not usually a concern unless you are using a tankless coil in the oil boiler...but keep in mind that it will take a little longer to get heat to the zones in mild weather.

It would be preferable to put the two tees on the supply side, but if that requires more piping work then it is up to you.

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 1:30 pm

Thanks Rob. The domestic hot water has it's own tank and zone, so no I don't have to keep the boiler warm. I'll look at the supply and see if I can do it there. If I have to extend the pipe a little I will. I just don't want to have to get into the zone valves if I don't have to. Thanks a lot. Now I can move on to opinions on my boiler choices. Have to get in touch with Whistlenut too.
Matt

Post by **Rob R.** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Is that a System 2000 oil boiler?

BunkerdCaddis · Post by **BunkerdCaddis** » Wed. Jun. 24, 2015 11:20 pm

[quote="DePippo79"... closely spaced tees. Need to double check, but I think you need at least a 12 inch section for the tees. .[/quote]

If I understand your statement here, 12 inches should be the max spacing for close tees if I understand my study correctly and the closer the better. Taco makes a "split tee" with the take offs in the same fitting (although I believe there is a divider between them, never had one in hand.) I am using shoulder nipples between mine.

blrman07 · Post by **blrman07** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 4:45 am

BunkerdCaddis wrote:[quote="DePippo79"... closely spaced tees. Need to double check, but I think you need at least a 12 inch section for the tees. .

If I understand your statement here, 12 inches should be the max spacing for close tees if I understand my study correctly and the closer the better. Taco makes a "split tee" with the take offs in the same fitting (although I believe there is a divider between them, never had one in hand.) I am using shoulder nipples between mine.[/quote]

Here is a primer on closely spaced T's. I had to read it when I came across a large system that supplied hot water for radiators in a three story building heated solely by gravity flow ie. no pumps or zone valves at all. They regulated by using the valves at the radiators.

That system drove me batty for a while until I finally figured out the flow patterns with those closely spaced T's. Drawing 6 gives you the dimensions you need to pay very close attention to.

http://comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_ ... orial.html

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 7:51 am

I have always used 3 times pipe diameter = then left it long

That's what I was taught

but its all good juts as long as your close

Sort of like keeping score pitching horse-shoes and/or hand grenades

Kind Regards
Sting

ps -- keep reading those books

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 12:01 pm

Thanks for the new replies. I feel privileged that Sting commented. Yes, I will keep reading Holohan's books. This heating stuff is still new to me. Still building my confidence. I think I'll try it the way I have it drawn up. If it doesn't work to my expectations, I'll just repipe it. I'll have isolation on each zone so I'll only have to drain the near boiler piping. If I really get motivated maybe I'll start building some new headers. If I put the tees on the supply side I'll have to move the oil boiler circulator and supply header up a few inches any way. If I put the tee's on the supply side they'll have to be below the main circulator. Correct? We'll see. Regarding the 12 inches if I remember right the tee's have to be within 12 inches of each other to be effective. Think I still might get a second pair of eyes, I might need help with the wiring. Yes, the oil boiler is a system 2000. Great efficient boiler, but it uses a special combustion chamber and a ecm. Have to be a dealer to get parts. When heating oil is below $3.00/gal it's more economical for me to burn oil than coal. Going with a coal boiler should change this I hope.
Matt

DePippo79 · Post by **DePippo79** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 12:14 pm

More artwork of tees on supply side. This look good?
Matt

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 1:48 pm

DePippo79 wrote:Thanks for the new replies. I feel privileged that Sting commented.

you really shouldn't be LOL

DePippo79 wrote: Yes, I will keep reading Holohan's books. This heating stuff is still new to me. Still building my confidence.

GOOD

DePippo79 wrote:I think I'll try it the way I have it drawn up. If it doesn't work to my expectations, I'll just repipe it.

Infinitely repairable - but one time and done is nice too

DePippo79 wrote: I'll have isolation on each zone so I'll only have to drain the near boiler piping. If I really get motivated maybe I'll start building some new headers. If I put the tees on the supply side I'll have to move the oil boiler circulator and supply header up a few inches any way. If I put the tee's on the supply side they'll have to be below the main circulator. Correct?

if you keep reading you will find the the close spaced tee configuration is to provide isolation from the load that your feeding and the energy production source - This should be used on primary secondary piping loop. As your using it - it will tap the energy from the source and in that could be placed at almost any location in the loop your cutting into supply or return side - your going to have a greater source of energy from the supply side - IT DEPENDS - on how much energy [BTU's] you need.

now if I have my head around this = you want to use the design in reverse - you want to supply energy to the existing loop or load from the coal boiler ??? Well then I would defiantly put it as drawn.

DePippo79 wrote: Regarding the 12 inches if I remember right the tee's have to be within 12 inches of each other to be effective.

NO -- stop --- not !!!!

the 12 inch rule is how far you place a pair of close spaced tees from another fitting - like a turn and the same for a pump or an air scoop
close spaced tees will work for isolation and correct flow of energy if placed 3 pipe diameters [or 4] apart = 12 inches away from the next "event" in the line

Kind Regards
Sting

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Thu. Jun. 25, 2015 1:57 pm

Because of the way your going to configure this - the Oil Boiler will never really be left out in the cold - I suspect it will always be at least warm.

so I scribe another post to your thread "suggesting" that you use a kinder gentler "kiss" method and simply pipe the boilers in series

add an Efical proof of draft damper on the smoke pipe of the OB to keep heat loss to a min - you maybe should to do that anyway if its not already there to keep condensation at bay

i know - I know --- what is this guy telling me after the soap box rants in the past - but that life -- if your don't want to truly build a Primary secondary loop to isolate BOTH boilers from each other and from the load

well don't' build a mouse trap that will not perform as well as something simpler

ok I am going to go back and lay by my dish now

This Sound Good. Add on Boiler Piping Option.

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