Home Inspection: Live Knob & Tube Wiring

NoSmoke wrote:lead-based paint

The house has a lead abatement statement from the seller as part of the disclosures. The exterior and interior walls have been "abated" by means of painting over or other approved methods. Interesting you say this because there are some original windows left (from 1890!!!) and the inspector mentioned that these windows might be a source of lead even if the structure carries an abatement certificate.

I've unearthed more electrical facts. Our city requires a certificate of occupancy for any properties offered for rent. Even if the owner intends to occupy one unit, the entire structure must carry this certificate. One of the statutes relating to electrical is that if the tenant is to pay his own electrical utility, then the structure must carry a separate feed with meter. And, the structure itself must have its own feed with meter to power devices not related to the individual units. For instance this is a 2 unit house and the city wants 3 meters & feeds. The third meter would be a "landlord" meter and would runs items like hallway lights, smoke detectors, a basement sump pump etc...

This house only has 2 meters and we have raised this issue as part of the upgrades. Waiting on the owner to show us a valid certificate of occupancy.

He is intending on selling the property, so he likely does not need a cert. to sell.

If he rents out now is something outside the scope of selling it....unless he is selling it as a apartment bldg?

Of course if you intend on charging for electricity, you would need a meter to calc. it (likely he would get his own electric bill).
I wonder what happens if he does not pay and just then moves out? Hence, some landlords just include this as rent.

Must be getting a great deal on the house...

Sunny Boy wrote:

Sting wrote:Inspectors are hired to point out the obvious - with no imagination -to drive the value up or down depending on who pays the fee= many without the common sense to pour urine out of a boot before puttin it on

What's wrong with knob and tube wiring?

It lasted this long and it may out last some of the junk the big box store sells today!

Kind Regards
Sting

A long list of things wrong with it. It was never designed to handle the loads we put on circuits today.

It has no third wire emergency ground wire system. You then can become the emergency ground.

That age wiring is often tied into a fuse box of too-small capacity for modern home type use.

The old cloth and rubber insulation is often so badly deteriorated that the cloth is rotted and the rubber gets very brittle, is cracked, and crumbles easily. All too often, just touching it, or vibrations such as hammering picture hangers into a wall, it falls off.

The insulation is not fire retardant if it gets too hot.

The connections are often corroded causing too-high resistance. Sometimes to the point the connections get hot enough to start a fire.

My oldest kid is an arson investigator for Travelers Insurance Company. For old homes with old wiring, care to guess what most fires trace back to as the cause ?

Paul

Well I've got to weigh in on this one. I've been a home inspector since 1989 and I've never been hired to drive the value up or down. I'm hired to find any and all problems with a home to protect the interests of my client, almost always the buyer. I will have to agree that like in all professions there are some inspectors who couldn't find their ass with both hands.
Sunnyboy nailed it. This wiring is old and almost always in poor condition. In attics it cannot be covered with insulation although it almost always is. Many insurance companies will not even insure a home with knob and tube wiring. It's a no brainer to replace it.

Update:

The seller made it quite known to us to that knob & tube was a moot point in her mind. In fact she denied it even existing which came to a shock to us given how it is just hanging from the basement ceiling and a simple touch with a electrical contact tester proves it is live. She gave us an entire spiel about not making enough $ on the sale, went as low as she could go on the selling price blah blah blah. The house has both units rented, is in "perfect shape", has a certificate of occupancy and is insured so if it is found, it is on my dime to remove it.

So she grudgingly permitted (and of course let us know it was a stupid idea) the more thorough electrical inspection and the electrician confirmed the existence of k&t in both attic and basement. Coincidentally, the electrican I chose ( who has done considerable work for us) happened to be the seller's electrician as well which he disclosed prior to the inspection upon arriving to the house. He drew up an estimate and found all of the overhead lighting on both floors was connected to k&t wiring and noted which outlets needed to be converted to a true grounded circuit. The house has original tin ornate ceilings (from 1890!) and horsehair plaster lathe walls so the estimate was jacked up a bit to deal with this difficulty. I had asked that the ceiling be preserved at almost whatever cost (since she would be paying I'd rather have the electrician make a hole we can later patch in the walls rather than the irreplaceable ceilings, plus with enough mud + work, the walls can be restored a heck of alot easier). Total cost to replace 2 circuits was $1800 and the rest of the house was using up to date wiring.

We still did not think she was going to pay so my realtor did some digging. Seller purchased the house less than 2 years ago and in the seller's disclosure she received from previous seller, there was a note about live k&t. In her disclosure to me, she failed to mention it. Using this technicality, we found her disclosure as having serious problems with not telling the entire honest story about the property. Plus we discovered a man living on the first floor who claimed to be a "paying tenant" despite her disclosure listing the first floor as unoccupied. Another ding.

She apologized profusely which was somewhat nice to hear after all of her bullshit responses and claims she "spaced it" (read: totally forgot about it). Her agent was probably pissed about it and advised that she would have to disclose it if she wanted to keep selling the house and it was just best to agree to reduce the price of the house by the amount listed in the estimate. End result is that I get the house for only $200 above my offer price. My appraisal just happened and if all passes by the mortgage company, we close on the 17th.

The tin ceiling is way cool!

Best of luck!!

You can install tin ceilings today if you wish ...

http://www.diyornot.com/Project.aspx?ndx2=2&Rcd=156

Not that costly either over the long term.

$1800 for 2 electrical lines is expensive .... how expensive is copper today? wow

I would have nixed the deal myself. I don't deal with people who lie.

I'd place a wager she was born and raised in MA. I can just tell.

davidmcbeth3 wrote:$1800 for 2 electrical lines is expensive .... how expensive is copper today? wow

I would have nixed the deal myself. I don't deal with people who lie.

Interesting that I thought the $1800 wasn't bad since he was dealing with the plaster walls and tin ceiling! But because of the lies I would also have walked away from the deal or cut my offer further since there may have been other convenient forgetfulness on her part.

davidmcbeth3 wrote:I would have nixed the deal myself. I don't deal with people who lie.

I just price it in.