Pentagon cancels release of controversial Iraq report

This isn't news.

Everyone from the beginning knew bin Laden and Saddam were not linked at all. Iraq and our domestic politcs are far more complex than a simple lib vs. conservative/Dem vs. Republican debate.

Saddam was a secularist leader, bin Laden the leader of a fundamentalist movement that challenged it. We supported Saddam in the '80s in order that he contain the fundamentalist revolution in Iran... So, not too many (living) al-Qaida existed in Iraq under Saddam. The argument to depose Saddam was solely based on development of WMD and his potential to use them.

Our policy in the middle east is based on energy (oil - protect availablility of strategic resource) and support for our ally, Israel (which means a 'stable,' if not a 'manageable' middle east). All the government's actions can be measured clearly by these goals. This was the 'neo' conservative strategy (created by Paul Wolfowitz), and extended through the democratic party through its right wing and moderates, like Sen. Lieberman, etc. It takes both sides of the aisle to vote this through, year after year.

The argument to depose Saddam was weak. It had to trumped up - and, obviously was. The green light came from the facts that we had troops in the area (fighting the 'real' battle in Afghanistan) and there would be little public resistance ("Irag? Afghanistan? What's the difference? They are probably all Al-Qaida!" Which is the way the Bush adminstration played it).

We had the momentum to 'keep it going' and clean up the area for once and all time. So, we did it and here we are.

Well stated. The problem now is that the flies have captured the fly paper. We can't stay and we can't leave.

coalkirk wrote:Well stated. The problem now is that the flies have captured the fly paper. We can't stay and we can't leave.

I disagree. We can certainly leave being on the bullseye in Iraq & still bein the area to attack Al Quieda any place we want to. (The press hasn't been reporting it much be we lost 5 GI's killed just 2 days ago by a suicide bomber & 3 yesterday by an IED I think. We are sitting ducks over there & the violence level is back on the rise)

The Army of Muhammad, a known al-Qaeda subsidiary.
"The agent reports (Extract 25) that The Army of Muhammad is working with Osama bin Laden. …
A later memorandum from the same collection to the Director of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established. The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that “this organization is an offshoot of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can be a way of camouflaging the organization.”


"One question remains regarding Iraq’s terrorism capability: Is there anything in the captured archives to indicate that Saddam had the will to use his terrorist capabilities directly against United States? Judging from examples of Saddam’s statements (Extract 34) before the 1991 Gulf War with the United tates, the answer is yes.
In the years between the two Gulf Wars, UN sanctions reduced Saddam’s ability to shape regional and world events, steadily draining his military, economic, and military powers. The rise of Islamist fundamentalism in the region gave Saddam the opportunity to make terrorism, one of the few tools remaining in Saddam’s “coercion” toolbox, not only cost effective but a formal instrument of state power. Saddam nurtured this capability with an infrastructure supporting (1) his own particular brand of state terrorism against internal and external threats, (2) the state sponsorship of suicide operations, and (3) organizational relationships and “outreach programs” for terrorist groups. Evidence that was uncovered and analyzed attests to the existence of a terrorist capability and a willingness to use it until the day Saddam was forced to flee Baghdad by Coalition forces"

http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf (Canceled Report?)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/T ... nd_ter.asp

"Although Al-Qaeda functions independently of other terrorist organizations, it also functions through some of the terrorist organizations that operate under its umbrella or with its support, including: the Al-Jihad, the Al-Gamma Al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group - led by Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and later by Ahmed Refai Taha, a/k/a “Abu Yasser al Masri,”), Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and a number of jihad groups in other countries, including the Sudan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bosnia, Croatia, Albania, Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon, the Philippines, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, the Kashmiri region of India, and the Chechen region of Russia. Al-Qaeda also maintained cells and personnel in a number of countries to facilitate its activities, including in Kenya, Tanzania, the United Kingdom, Canada and the United States. By banding together, Al-Qaeda proposed to work together against the perceived common enemies in the West - particularly the United States which Al-Qaeda regards as an “infidel” state which provides essential support for other “infidel” governments."

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/caruso121801.htm

“Report Details Saddam’s Terrorist Ties”.
"The Iraqi Intelligence Service in a 1993 memo to Saddam agreed on a plan to train commandos from Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the group that assassinated Anwar Sadat and was founded by Al Qaeda's second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri."

http://www.nysun.com/article/72906

You decide.

Devil5052 wrote:

coalkirk wrote:Well stated. The problem now is that the flies have captured the fly paper. We can't stay and we can't leave.

I disagree. We can certainly leave being on the bullseye in Iraq & still bein the area to attack Al Quieda any place we want to. (The press hasn't been reporting it much be we lost 5 GI's killed just 2 days ago by a suicide bomber & 3 yesterday by an IED I think. We are sitting ducks over there & the violence level is back on the rise)

Devil, I don't know what country you live in, but I hear NOTHING but reports every 30 minute on the radio stations and on the nightly news about the soldiers killed in the last few days.

What ISN"T reported it the new schools opened, the Hospitals providing healthcare to the Iraqis, the improvement in their lives, this is the ONLY way to make our future safe, to have the generations growing up NOW to see that the 'West' is not the 'Great Satan'..

Too bad the liberal media won't make even an ATTEMPT at reporting the good instead of the bad.

How about this: 'Irene Iraqi' who has needes surgury for the injuries she recieved from torture by Saddam's police. She now is recovering, and is expected to live a full life with out the pain and crippling injuries.

How would the American public percieve our pressence in Iraq then??

The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!

Greg L

LsFarm wrote:

Devil5052 wrote:

coalkirk wrote:Well stated. The problem now is that the flies have captured the fly paper. We can't stay and we can't leave.

I disagree. We can certainly leave being on the bullseye in Iraq & still bein the area to attack Al Quieda any place we want to. (The press hasn't been reporting it much be we lost 5 GI's killed just 2 days ago by a suicide bomber & 3 yesterday by an IED I think. We are sitting ducks over there & the violence level is back on the rise)

Devil, I don't know what country you live in, but I hear NOTHING but reports every 30 minute on the radio stations and on the nightly news about the soldiers killed in the last few days.

What ISN"T reported it the new schools opened, the Hospitals providing healthcare to the Iraqis, the improvement in their lives, this is the ONLY way to make our future safe, to have the generations growing up NOW to see that the 'West' is not the 'Great Satan'..

Too bad the liberal media won't make even an ATTEMPT at reporting the good instead of the bad.

How about this: 'Irene Iraqi' who has needes surgury for the injuries she recieved from torture by Saddam's police. She now is recovering, and is expected to live a full life with out the pain and crippling injuries.

How would the American public percieve our pressence in Iraq then??

The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!

Greg L

Look Greg, it is undeniable that the amount of air time devoted to Iraq has drasticaly dropped off in the last few months, & the violence levels there are again increasing .(8 American GI's blown up in just the last 2 days) Furthermore, I resent every dime of my tax moiney being spent over in Iraq to rebuild their schools when my Grandsons are sent home with a note from their teachers begging their families to send in pencils & supplies because the school can't afford to provide them!! That's where I want my damn taxes spent...Not in Iraq!!
Sorry, but I get angry sometimes too!

LsFarm wrote:The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!

Greg L

Are these media types liberal:


Neal Borks
Sean Hannity
G. Gordon Liddy
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
John Gibson
Laura Ingram
Ann Coulter
& hundreds more....

That liberal media crap went out in the 1970s!

Devil5052 wrote:

LsFarm wrote:The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!

Greg L

Are these media types liberal:
Neal Borks
Sean Hannity
G. Gordon Liddy
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
John Gibson
Laura Ingram
Ann Coulter
& hundreds more....

That liberal media crap went out in the 1970s!

I don't want to speak for Greg but I think we mean hard reporters that should report the news without an agenda. Most people get their news from the MSM. Nightly news, news papers not radio talk host & opinionated tv personalities. By the way nice post Greg especially that last line.

That's the OLD liberal media.. new liberal media isn't so obvious..
They just report the right info, that which will inflame the desire to get out, and ignore the good info, that which will show we are making a BIG difference in Iraq... I have asked direct questions of my neighbor's kids.. soldiers who have volunteered to go back to Iraq.. because they KNOW they are making a difference,

Now, I DO AGREE with your comments about spending money at home... BUT..lets look at what could/would happen if we pull out of Iraq:

Yes we would save billions, even trillions..
So lets say we actually spend that money on roads, education, some form of healthcare for those families who wish to pay for it.

Then, the festering boil in the middle east continues to fester,,, the opinion that the US is weak, and has no stomach for a fight will be reinforced... so the terrorists get stronger..AND smarter..

And next we have another 9-11, but it may not be a simple, single attack like a 'dirty bomb' or a bomb on a train, or a hijacked airliner [probably wouldn't/couldn't happen again].
But something easy and simple.. like six or eight gunmen willing to die.. just go into the big malls all across the country..on say the day after Thanksgiving, or Easter, or some other shopping holiday.. Only a few malls have metal detectors. The terrorist could just carry in automatic weapons and several clips of ammuntion. Then just start shooting... the effect would be devastating, both within the mall, our country and outside our borders..

Think about it... we would have to become a police state, with a federal ID system, and police everywhere to protect the flock of sheep that our society has become. just to have a modicum of safety. Our way of life has significantly changed since 9-11, and if we have another attack on our soil it will change by another several orders of magnitude...

So... where do we draw the line?? I seriously don't know or even have a guess... I firmly believe that we can't just pull our ot Iraq.. much as I would LOVE to pull out... even if Billary or Ossama gets elected, we won't just pull out.. there will probably be a pull back,, regardless of who or which 'party' is elected..

Your constant sniping and overt hatred of the current administration is wearing thin, I agree there are significant problems with what happened, why it happened, and how it still is happening... But why not try less finger pointing, hatred spewing, and try to come up with some ideas, suggestions. that maybe someone could take and run with??

We are in a serious quandry.. we do need to pull out, for the sake of our economy, our infrastructure, and our future,, but we CAN'T .. I would be shooting ourselves in the foot. If we did just pull out, we would eventually destroy our economy our infrstructure, and our future,, because our country would be at war, a guerilla war on our own soil.. not good,

I feel for you, to have children growing up in this time and world... we certainly can't promise or even hope for a better life for our children than we had for ourselves... The generations growing up now are some of the first that will experience a lower standard of living that what their parents lived... pretty sad...

Oh well I think I'll go drink Hemlock.. all is lost...

Greg L.

.

A big part of why we're going in the crapper is that we're seen in the world as the country that still thinks it has to throw its military muscle around to accomplish our strategic objectives. It's so, um, "last century."

Israel has nukes and can take care of itself. The only rational strategic thesis for invading Iraq was to pick off the biggest bully in the area and, so we thought, establish a democratic regime there. That was the neocon dream.

Only one problem: it overlooked something like 600 years of conflict between the Sunnis and Shiias and the small matter that the oppressive regime in Iraq was effectively containing the vast majority pro-Iranian Shiia population.

On top of that, knocking off Saddam and dispersing the Baathists left a vacuum for Al Quaeda, so things got worse for us on both sides of that ancient conflict by going in there -- just as Colin Powell forewarned.

And now, you're right, we're stuck. But Gen Petraeus and the surge really are the best friend of those who want to leave, because, once violence is under control and policing is feasible, it's that much smaller a burden to transfer to the Iraqi gov't, which we've been training for, what, 4 1/2 years now? Is that long enough?

Buh-bye!

(But, let's face it: as soon as we're out of there, there's gonna be a big fight between those two groups for control and it ain't gonna be pretty. And I don't think there's a GD thing we can do to stop it, short of babysitting them indefinitely. And that's going to be the choice this fall: use our limited resources to fix our problems here, or keep spending American lives and treasure to postpone the inevitable there.)

[quote="LsFarm"]That's the OLD liberal media.. new liberal media isn't so obvious..
Greg L.



I started a new thread regarding the National Media because I think it deserves it's own debate, so I will not go into my views here. I don't believe that what we are doing in Iraq now is making us safer at home.....Just the opposite by creating more hatred towards the US & more suicidal terrorists.
This statement of yours:..... "Your constant sniping and overt hatred of the current administration is wearing thin, I agree there are significant problems with what happened, why it happened, and how it still is happening... But why not try less finger pointing, hatred spewing, and try to come up with some ideas, suggestions. that maybe someone could take and run with?? "..... I find offensive. I do constantly attack this administration for what I believe are devastatingly bad & disingenuous policies. If they are "wearing thin" on you, then I suggest you are not required to read them. However, when you say this:..... " try to come up with some ideas, suggestions. that maybe someone could take and run with?? ".....I have done that on almost every off-topic thread. My answer for Iraq is to re-deploy our forces to other (more defensible) areas in the middle east, from which we can continue to attack our real enemy...A Quieda..... without creating more hatred & enemys than we are killing.
Perhaps you have missed some of these points, by I asure you, they are there.

I also simply disagree with this statement of yours : "We are in a serious quandry.. we do need to pull out, for the sake of our economy, our infrastructure, and our future,, but we CAN'T .. I would be shooting ourselves in the foot.".....I think re-deploying is exaclty what needs to be done. We have tried yours & Bush's way for the last 6 years & violence is again increasing in Iraq every day. (8 US soldiers killded in just the last 2 days!) Why not try my way for a change?

spc wrote:
By the way nice post Greg especially that last line.

Here is the last line spc refers too: "The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!"

Not very Christian of you, now was it SPC. What was your purpose in making sure you threw that line in?

(never mind....I know, I know.....it was just a joke....kinda like all the nasty Hellen Keller jokes..... making fun of the blind when I was a kid.....just a joke.) Sad really

Devil5052 wrote:Here is the last line spc refers too: "The liberal media's agenda has softened your mind!!"

Not very Christian of you, now was it SPC. What was your purpose in making sure you threw that line in?

(never mind....I know, I know.....it was just a joke....kinda like all the nasty Hellen Keller jokes..... making fun of the blind when I was a kid.....just a joke.) Sad really

Just asked God & He said it was ok but I should say a prayer for you. Its kind of hard with your member name though.



"Hear now O foolish people which have eyes and see not ... ears that hear not."
- Jeremiah 5:21

David Koresh thought he "heard the voice of God" too.

stockingfull wrote:David Koresh thought he "heard the voice of God" too.

No he heard a voice from the